Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Exiled_Tyke

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

OK to be clear, petrol supported by night time leccy.  The point being that the use of petrol is pretty efficient when backed up with relatively clean electricity.  I wasn't trying to make a point about total energy consumption. 

Grumpy_chap

Exiled_Tyke said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

OK to be clear, petrol supported by night time leccy.  The point being that the use of petrol is pretty efficient when backed up with relatively clean electricity.  I wasn't trying to make a point about total energy consumption. 

As far as I can make out, the "71 mpg" is meaningless in this case.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

Why take into account electricity from the plug when comparing CO2 emissions. The PHEV covers 71 miles with the emissions a diesel would produce to do 43 miles. Isn’t that a big saving in CO2 emissions? Or look at in another way. Putting 71PHEVs on the road is as effective as 28 BEVs and 43 diesels in terms of the amount of tailpipe CO2 produced. 

Petriix

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

Why take into account electricity from the plug when comparing CO2 emissions. The PHEV covers 71 miles with the emissions a diesel would produce to do 43 miles. Isn’t that a big saving in CO2 emissions? Or look at in another way. Putting 71PHEVs on the road is as effective as 28 BEVs and 43 diesels in terms of the amount of tailpipe CO2 produced. 

The electricity isn't zero carbon so, before you can calculate the total CO2, you need to know how much electricity was used as well. There are plenty of pure diesel cars which can achieve 60mpg without any electricity at all and I suspect the total CO2 per mile would be pretty comparable to that PHEV. That's before you consider the bigger footprint from the manufacturing process and the additional purchase price etc. It's certainly not clear cut if there's any saving at all. 

JKenH

UK Tesla Owner Reimbursed $10,000 After FSD Lawsuit Settlement

This is clearly an interesting case since it could lead to other Tesla owners filing similar cases against the EV maker in the UK on the basis of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Needless to say, there are many disgruntled Tesla owners in the U.S. who would also like to take the EV maker to court over failure to deliver on FSD claims, so it will be interesting to watch if the UK case will lead to a spike in litigation in the United States as well.

https://insideevs.com/news/695274/uk-tesla-owner-reimbursed-10000-usd-after-fsd-lawsuit-settlement/

This action was settled out of court so no legal precedent set but Tesla were sufficiently concerned to settle. I doubt many Brits bought FSD so probably not a great risk. America is different but there FSD does provide some functionality. 

JKenH

Petriix said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

Why take into account electricity from the plug when comparing CO2 emissions. The PHEV covers 71 miles with the emissions a diesel would produce to do 43 miles. Isn’t that a big saving in CO2 emissions? Or look at in another way. Putting 71PHEVs on the road is as effective as 28 BEVs and 43 diesels in terms of the amount of tailpipe CO2 produced. 

The electricity isn't zero carbon so, before you can calculate the total CO2, you need to know how much electricity was used as well. There are plenty of pure diesel cars which can achieve 60mpg without any electricity at all and I suspect the total CO2 per mile would be pretty comparable to that PHEV. That's before you consider the bigger footprint from the manufacturing process and the additional purchase price etc. It's certainly not clear cut if there's any saving at all. 

A couple of interesting points you make there which I will have to bear in mind when next discussing emissions. 

The electricity isn't zero carbon. Agreed, it isn’t but then it isn’t for BEVs either and that isn’t usually mentioned.

There are plenty of pure diesel cars which can achieve 60mpg. Fair enough, we can use that figure in future as a basis for calculating ICE emissions when comparing with BEVs. 

I only used the 43mpg and 71 mpg figures because they were what was quoted. Anyway, let’s use your 60mpg instead but if we do that then it is reasonable to assume that the driver will not be thrashing the pants off it. It is also reasonable for a comparison to assume that a modern PHEV purchaser might be buying one because they are hoping to get save money on fuel and won’t thrash the pants off their car either.  With that mindset, if you are looking to get a PHEV as an alternative to a 60mpg diesel or a BEV you might consider a Toyota Prius PHEV. 

The WLTP figure for the Prius is 235 mpg but according to real world users they average about 133mpg. https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/prius-plug-in-2017

(Of course with any PHEV the mpg you achieve will range anywhere from similar to a HEV if you never charge the battery to almost infinite mpg if you do all your miles on the battery.)

So if we take a real world mpg figure of 133mpg and compare it with your 60mpg diesel the Prius will typically have around half the CO2 emissions of the diesel or 2 Prius PHEVs will emit the equivalent CO2 to one 60 mpg diesel and one BEV. 

I admit my case for the PHEV relies on the owners charging the car regularly but I just can’t imagine any private buyer getting a PHEV and not plugging it in - you would buy something else.

Exiled_Tyke

JKenH said:

Petriix said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

Why take into account electricity from the plug when comparing CO2 emissions. The PHEV covers 71 miles with the emissions a diesel would produce to do 43 miles. Isn’t that a big saving in CO2 emissions? Or look at in another way. Putting 71PHEVs on the road is as effective as 28 BEVs and 43 diesels in terms of the amount of tailpipe CO2 produced. 

The electricity isn't zero carbon so, before you can calculate the total CO2, you need to know how much electricity was used as well. There are plenty of pure diesel cars which can achieve 60mpg without any electricity at all and I suspect the total CO2 per mile would be pretty comparable to that PHEV. That's before you consider the bigger footprint from the manufacturing process and the additional purchase price etc. It's certainly not clear cut if there's any saving at all. 

A couple of interesting points you make there which I will have to bear in mind when next discussing emissions. 

The electricity isn't zero carbon. Agreed, it isn’t but then it isn’t for BEVs either and that isn’t usually mentioned.

There are plenty of pure diesel cars which can achieve 60mpg. Fair enough, we can use that figure in future as a basis for calculating ICE emissions when comparing with BEVs. 

I only used the 43mpg and 71 mpg figures because they were what was quoted. Anyway, let’s use your 60mpg instead but if we do that then it is reasonable to assume that the driver will not be thrashing the pants off it. It is also reasonable for a comparison to assume that a modern PHEV purchaser might be buying one because they are hoping to get save money on fuel and won’t thrash the pants off their car either.  With that mindset, if you are looking to get a PHEV as an alternative to a 60mpg diesel or a BEV you might consider a Toyota Prius PHEV. 

The WLTP figure for the Prius is 235 mpg but according to real world users they average about 133mpg. https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/prius-plug-in-2017

(Of course with any PHEV the mpg you achieve will range anywhere from similar to a HEV if you never charge the battery to almost infinite mpg if you do all your miles on the battery.)

So if we take a real world mpg figure of 133mpg and compare it with your 60mpg diesel the Prius will typically have around half the CO2 emissions of the diesel or 2 Prius PHEVs will emit the equivalent CO2 to one 60 mpg diesel and one BEV. 

I admit my case for the PHEV relies on the owners charging the car regularly but I just can’t imagine any private buyer getting a PHEV and not plugging it in - you would buy something else.

I pretty much agree. Just to add. 

1. Obviously electricity is not zero carbon but with night time charging it is the lowest carbon form of fuel we can get, (Not withstanding the point that BEVs use electricity too) 
2. I stand by my figures of 43mpg and 71mpg as I was comparing very similar cars by the same manufacturer so one could be considered a substitute for the other.  My diesel (obviously) returned better figures on long journeys whereas the PHEV will do far better around town. If anything the diesel figures are generous as I do more long distance driving than my dad.  

Now obviously total CO2 is the main issue but where those emissions take place is also a consideration.  The diesel was also a real pain with particulate filters and the threat of AdBlue malfunction (which my garage told me is an issue).  

Netexporter

And you are unlikely to have an oil well (and refinery) in your garden, but you can have solar panels on your roof.

Petriix

I'm struggling to imagine the use-case where you're able to achieve 133 mpg in a PHEV but couldn't make an EV work. Either you're utilising the engine or you don't need it. 

JKenH

Petriix said:

I'm struggling to imagine the use-case where you're able to achieve 133 mpg in a PHEV but couldn't make an EV work. Either you're utilising the engine or you don't need it. 

But not everyone is ready for a EV yet. Many (rightly) are put off by the thought of having to rely on public chargers on long journeys. 

A PHEV would suit my lifestyle with a mix of lots of local trips and a few longer trips that were usually outside the range of my Leaf and required public charging. The same, I suspect, could be said for many people who drive to and from work/school/shops/gym etc then take only occasional longer trips to visit family/go on holiday etc.. 

 It is those long runs (outside the range of the car) that might be steering many people from buying an EV as their only car but they may be happy doing them in a PHEV,

I have been trying to find the median car journey length but can only find the average which in 2019 was 8.4 miles. Statistically, the majority of journeys would be below this distance or and would therefore be well suited to the limited range of even the oldest PHEVs (even if you include the return leg). 

If you can charge at home and top up every night you can start every journey from home with a full battery. 

 You are happy with your EV but even though a EV might be workable for them there are a lot of people who aren’t yet ready to commit and this may be a sensible and practical alternative.There are huge CO2 savings to be had with PHEVs for the right user that might otherwise be lost.