Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

1961Nick

If PHEVs were all fitted with fairly inadequate combustion engines, then there would be an incentive to overnight charge them.

A 2 tonne SUV with a 100bhp combustion engine wouldn't be much fun but it would get you to your destination. Add 200bhp of electrical energy to the mix & you've got a very capable vehicle.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

shinytop said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Reasonable month for BEVs, with a slight increase in market share (compared to last month when market share dropped) but an excellent month for PHEVs. With more cars like the new Skoda Superb with a 25.7kWh battery and 62 miles of range I would expect PHEVs to continue to increase market share.

October new car market beats pre-pandemic levels but subdued EV growth hinders green goals

Electrified vehicle uptake continued to accelerate in October accounting for 37.6% of all new car registrations. Hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) grew 24.6% to reach 19,574 units, while plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEVs) recorded the highest proportional growth, up 60.5% to 14,285 registrations. Battery electric vehicle (BEV) uptake increased for the 42nd month in a row, by 20.1% to 23,943 units.3 Given overall market growth, however, this amounted to a BEV market share of 15.6%, a relatively small rise from last year’s 14.8%.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/11/october-new-car-market-beats-pre-pandemic-levels-but-subdued-ev-growth-hinders-green-goals/

I found this chart on the CarDealer Magazine website interesting. I don’t know the technical name for these moving graphics but did a comparison of the market composition in November 2022 to October 2023. Tesla were the second biggest player in November 2022 but by October 2023 over the year as a whole have slipped down to 13th. https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/best-october-for-new-car-registrations-since-2019-but-ev-growth-is-still-subdued-smmt/292596

The electric range of that Skoda is exactly what the market needs during the transition phase to full electric. 62 miles, although not great for 26kWh, would enable a lot of owners to do most of their journeys without troubling the ICE. It's a great way to experience electricity & the associated low running costs while still having the ICE 'safety net' for longer trips.  

Agreed but why are so many EV enthusiasts so against PHEVs? 

Phevs in the UK originally meant the Mitsubushi Outlander suv/4x4 which sold in large volumes due to a company car tax break for Phevs.  The battery range was small and they were rarely driven on battery because people couldn't be bothered so instead were generally run on their inefficient 2l petrol engine so actually caused more pollution than if they had not been a phev at all.

I suspect many who have a phev will not actually both to plug it in regularly and will almost certainly never public charge as petrol miles are generally cheaper so once they go to non-driveway owning second owners they will be exclusively run on petrol.

So Phev in theory is a win, in practice is probably a waste of a good battery.

I think that's entirely fair, and unfair at the same time, which is possibly why PHEV's are so contentious.

I remember watching the numbers for the Outlander sales, and cheering them on. A great idea I felt, like the Prius Prime (12miles of range?), and when BEV's didn't look like they could make it big due to range and lack of rapid charging locations (none).

But ...... sadly, you are right, that many weren't used 'properly', and that was very disheartening. Especially as we couldn't forsee ever being able to buy something like that (pre rolling the dice on Tesla shares).

But, and this is a heavily caveated but, if a PHEV displaces an ICE purchase, and the buyer can't make a BEV work for them, afford it, or honestly believes it's not viable, then driven mostly on leccy, it's a great compliment to the transition to BEV's. [I may be lying to myself, but I hope not, that PHEV sales largely displace ICE sales, so it's a net plus.]

I appreciate that sounds a bit dubious, but some PHEV owners really do go all in on the leccy side. Though I take your point about rapid charging v's petrol costs, also, the PHEV may only have 7kW A/C charging.

What I see on some comments and forums is a genuine argument for PHEV's over BEV's, by some people, who feel the BEV limitations of range and charging are too great. That's when things get a bit more heated, especially if the site has a G&E leaning, given the PHEV is often burning FF's. Perhaps, what I'm seeing is more an issue for UK and US drivers, where the charging infrastructure is weaker, for non Tesla BEV's to charge, so that may resolve itself over the next few years, fingers crossed.

There's also, of course, the elephant in the room, or the 'turd in the punchbowl', which is Toyota. As they've been actively campaigning against BEV's for about a decade, and trying to promote PHEV's and HFCV's instead. They use the forked tongue approach of pretending they are trying to offer more choice, whilst not offering BEV's themselves (till now), and trying to undermine confidence in them at the same time. That's largely backfired for them, but I suspect VWG were extremely grateful as it shifted the focus off them, for poor environmental actions.

Toyota could (and should) have been leading the charge on BEV's. In fact, I feel they made a massive mistake, as they could have taken the Tesla appraoch and started with small numbers of expensive BEV's, to minimise losses/investment, and expanded from there. And all of this could have been done under the Lexus brand, to avoid any issues/criticisms. Even after missing the chance to lead, they still could have lept into action in 2012, when the Tesla S proved that BEV's were viable, in that segment.

Ho hum, spilt milk perhaps?

Perhaps we can amicably disagree on this. 

I have tried to pull a few facts and figures from the internet (I realise for some these won’t carry the same weight as the ‘turd in a punch bowl’ comment but others looking more objectively may see some merit in what Toyota have achieved.

I don’t have the latest statistics but by 2020 Toyota had sold 15 million hybrids (not PHEVs) and I believe sell something like 2.6 million hybrids per year. (In Europe by September electrified vehicles accounted for 71% of Toyota’s car sales.) 

The average UK car (Diesel, Petrol, Hybrid) contribution to CO2 emissions is 119.7 grams per kilometre (g/Km) and with an average of 12,000km (7,600mls) per year 119g/km x12k = 1.42 Metric tons of CO2 per year per car [8]. https://www.firstvehicleleasing.co.uk/blog/co2-emissions-and-motor-cars/ Switching to an EV will therefore save 1.42metric tones of CO2 per year. 

Toyota claim to have saved 120 million tonnes of CO2 by using hybrids compared to a normal petrol engine. That’s the equivalent of 84m vehicle years, or if we take the age of an average hybrid to be 7years that’s the equivalent of taking 12 million cars off the road or looking at it another way, by building hybrids Toyota have achieved the same as building 12m electric cars. 

I was sceptical about this as by now Toyota will probably only have built around 25m EVs so that suggests 2 hybrids can save as much CO2 emissions as one EV. Actually it isn’t as outrageous as it may seem as this article suggests

Matthias Alleckna, energy industry analyst at Energyrates.ca, writes about efficient living and electric vehicles.

“On average, a hybrid car can emit 46 percent less greenhouse gas than a regular vehicle. By combining the electric battery with traditional fuels, such cars can be an attractive option for consumers who want to start the energy transition without taking risks,” Alleckna said.

https://www.chooseenergy.com/news/article/how-hybrid-cars-help/

Now, I know among all the Toyota critics, there will be some scepticism about these figures but even scaling back Toyota’s claims, it is apparent that the contribution of their hybrids to avoiding CO2 emissions is very substantial, possibly greater, over the several decades of hybrid production, than the contribution from Tesla’s fleet. 

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

Agreed but why are so many EV enthusiasts so against PHEVs? 

I was going to comment about the number of PHEV's driven by favourable BIK and never even unwrap the charge cable, but I have been beaten to it.

I suspect the PHEV ship is one that has sailed and the PHEV Superb is too late to the dockside.

I also fear that the "all electric" driving of PHEV's is very minimal.  I previously had a Toyota hybrid (regular, not PHEV) and that would hardly ever go all-electric.  
One of my friends has the plug-in Niro hybrid and, rather like I found in the Toyota, he finds that the car rarely progresses in EV mode as it requires such a ludicrously light foot as to be impractical and the car decides that you are after power so adds in all the push of the ICE.
I really would have hoped that the PHEV hybrids, with a larger battery would be better at functioning in all-electric mode but my friend's experience seems to be otherwise.  Now, his experience may not be typical, or the Niro may just be a less accomplished PHEV option - I simply do not know.

Maybe there are some hybrids that have a longer battery range and able to drive "for real" in EV mode - there is a poster over in the motoring board who thinks they should be able to park their "electric" self-charging hybrid in an EV charging bay...

JKenH

A bit more on Toyota’s manual EV from Autocar

DRIVING A MANUAL EV

It warps your brain to some extent as you’re successfully tricked into thinking you’re not in an EV. You start the car as normal and choose ‘D’ from the automatic selector. Then there’s a secondary ‘Engine start’ button, which fires up an engine sound, and a familiar one at that: a Volkswagen Golf GTI’s.

You engage first gear as you would with any manual car. The shift is short and precise and the clutch has heft to it. You can stall it as you can a manual car and you can slip the clutch.

Acceleration is strong, and you’re far more involved in the process than you would be in a normal Lexus UX 300e – the EV to which this ‘transmission’ is fitted.

You soon forget you’re in what is ordinarily a fairly unremarkable car, such is the extra involvement the system hands to its driver.

All the usual manual features are there: engine braking, coasting and, most amusingly, no torque if you suddenly try to accelerate in top gear, which then brings with it the synthetic sound of parts of the cabin trim rattling. It sounds like a gimmick, but it’s actually all rather believable.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/654a04f9f3335b001f74cbb3/9

Petriix

I am vociferously against hybrids because, in my opinion, they are a con: sold with the claim of being efficient but in reality no better than a reasonably economical ICE. I've encountered many people who don't know there is a difference between a hybrid and an EV, some of whom have been conned into buying a hybrid and calling it 'electric'.

I bought a diesel car in 2004 which ran at (a claimed) 119g of CO2 per kilometre and returned a real world 50mpg. There are pure diesel engines capable of doing 70mpg real world today that come without the complexity, expense and additional carbon footprint of a hybrid.

The very simple point is that, if you use a PHEV on electric most of the time then you should have bought an EV; if you regularly use the engine then you may as well have stuck with a full fat fossil vehicle.

Hybrids are basically 'light' cigarettes. They still cause cancer. 

ABrass

Ooh, magic Hybrids!

They produce 46% less CO2 whilst burning only 20% less fuel. Very impressive.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

Agreed but why are so many EV enthusiasts so against PHEVs? 

I was going to comment about the number of PHEV's driven by favourable BIK and never even unwrap the charge cable, but I have been beaten to it.

I suspect the PHEV ship is one that has sailed and the PHEV Superb is too late to the dockside.

I also fear that the "all electric" driving of PHEV's is very minimal.  I previously had a Toyota hybrid (regular, not PHEV) and that would hardly ever go all-electric.  
One of my friends has the plug-in Niro hybrid and, rather like I found in the Toyota, he finds that the car rarely progresses in EV mode as it requires such a ludicrously light foot as to be impractical and the car decides that you are after power so adds in all the push of the ICE.
I really would have hoped that the PHEV hybrids, with a larger battery would be better at functioning in all-electric mode but my friend's experience seems to be otherwise.  Now, his experience may not be typical, or the Niro may just be a less accomplished PHEV option - I simply do not know.

Maybe there are some hybrids that have a longer battery range and able to drive "for real" in EV mode - there is a poster over in the motoring board who thinks they should be able to park their "electric" self-charging hybrid in an EV charging bay...

PHEV sales volumes are up 36.7% and as a share of the market up 14.5% in 2023 compared to 2022 while the respective figures for BEVs are 34.2% and 11.6%.
The last couple of months PHEV sales volumes have been up 51% and 60% compared to the same months in 2022 while the increases for BEVs were 19% and 20%.

If you follow EV social media you will no doubt have seen there are also quite a few EV owners who think they should be able to park their cars in an EV charging bay.

Martyn1981

Petriix said:

I am vociferously against hybrids because, in my opinion, they are a con: sold with the claim of being efficient but in reality no better than a reasonably economical ICE. I've encountered many people who don't know there is a difference between a hybrid and an EV, some of whom have been conned into buying a hybrid and calling it 'electric'.

I bought a diesel car in 2004 which ran at (a claimed) 119g of CO2 per kilometre and returned a real world 50mpg. There are pure diesel engines capable of doing 70mpg real world today that come without the complexity, expense and additional carbon footprint of a hybrid.

The very simple point is that, if you use a PHEV on electric most of the time then you should have bought an EV; if you regularly use the engine then you may as well have stuck with a full fat fossil vehicle.

Hybrids are basically 'light' cigarettes. They still cause cancer. 

I may appear to be somewhat schizophrenic, as I do agree with most of what you'd said, and GC's point that the PHEV ship has sailed ....... but, and I hope this point makes sense, but I think you are currently (currently is the crucial part here) wrong about suggesting that PHEV owners who use them properly, should have bought a BEV. I have a couple of PHEV friends for whom BEV's were not (quite) viable at the time.

I'm a huge fan of BEV's (obviously), they are the future, they have already effectively won, but not everyone can make a BEV work for them today. Maybe tomorrow, but not today, so I do think think there's a place for them, if they displace an ICE sale. I think they can persuade/reassure the first and subsequent owners, that a BEV will work for them tomorrow. Of course, there's a very good chance that I'm being way too optimistic.

I know this is hypothetical, but if only X% of new sales today are BEV's, then all other sales being PHEV's, and used mainly on leccy, would be a plus. [I think it's a plus, but tbh I'm wavering  ]

However, I totally get the reality, that a PHEV is carrying around two sets of drivetrains, for extra weight and cost. Plus the long term damage that Toyota has caused by promoting 'self-charging hybrids' for their HEV's, and campaigning directly against BEV's, and for PHEV's instead. Those arguments may well have contributed to the anti-BEV ravings of the UK press this year, and the commentators that have been convinced that BEV's are not the solution, suggesting PHEV's, HFCV's and e-fuels instead.

Your light cigarettes analogy is a good one, and why hybrids of any type are not viable in the long term. Hopefully the point is becoming moot as BEV sales grow, and I'd suggest the transition will accelerate by mid decade as relative costs fall, and charging infrastructure improves.

Looking to world PEV sales in Sept, we have 12% BEV and 5% PHEV. I suspect that as the BEV figure grows, perhaps +5%pa, then accelerating later this decade, as ICE costs rise as sales fall, we will see PHEV's stuck at 5% (perhaps upto 10%) as a complimentary addition ....... if (IF) used properly?

World EV Sales Now Equal 17% Of World Auto Sales

Global plugin vehicle registrations were up 23% in September 2023 compared to September 2022, rising to 1,291,00 units. That’s a new all-time record. In the end, plugins represented 17% share of the overall auto market (12% BEV share alone). The market share could have been even higher if the overall ICE market hadn’t also been recovering to pre-COVID levels…. It seems that economic crisis or not, people are still buying cars.

This means that the global automotive market is firmly in the Electric Disruption Zone*. Add the fact that plugless hybrids represented 12% of total automotive sales in September, and we have 29% of global registrations having some form of electrification! (*People have asked me what the “Electric Disruption Zone” is. Basically, it is the steepest part of the tech adoption S-curve. Between 10–20% and 80–90%, market share growth will accelerate, and then it will slow down on the way to 100%.)

Full electric vehicles (BEVs) represented 69% of plugin registrations in September, keeping the year-to-date tally at 70% share.

Exiled_Tyke

Petriix said:

I am vociferously against hybrids because, in my opinion, they are a con: sold with the claim of being efficient but in reality no better than a reasonably economical ICE. I've encountered many people who don't know there is a difference between a hybrid and an EV, some of whom have been conned into buying a hybrid and calling it 'electric'.

I bought a diesel car in 2004 which ran at (a claimed) 119g of CO2 per kilometre and returned a real world 50mpg. There are pure diesel engines capable of doing 70mpg real world today that come without the complexity, expense and additional carbon footprint of a hybrid.

The very simple point is that, if you use a PHEV on electric most of the time then you should have bought an EV; if you regularly use the engine then you may as well have stuck with a full fat fossil vehicle.

Hybrids are basically 'light' cigarettes. They still cause cancer. 

Perhaps the issue is that people need to understand what they are buying.  My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. (My last very similar diesel reported 43mpg average across my journeys).  Most of the time he can run on full electric but then he has some journeys where a BEV wouldn't be practical.  A light cigarette is still better than a Player's Navy Cut if you really need to smoke, 

Grumpy_chap

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.