BEVs deals and information

Martyn1981

JKenH wrote: »

Lawyers for the family of a man who died in a fiery Tesla Model S crash are calling the vehicle a 'death trap' in a lawsuit against the company

https://apple.news/AQXQRlpW2SSyTM4duDGRNyQ

Hmmm. So not just RE and AGW, now you are having a pop at BEV's/Tesla, I guess there really is no limit to your FUD.

Perhaps you would like to compare the rate of fires between ICEV's and BEV's, and also perhaps the crash rate of Tesla vehicles, given that their latest report pointed to Tesla's on autopilot averaging 9x as many miles per accident as the average.

Have you heard the saying? - "When you are in a hole, stop digging!"

Martyn1981

ABrass wrote: »

The corolla comparison is because in terms of total cost of ownership it is similar to a Toyota Corolla. That's the benefit of an electric power train over ICE.

Having not bought a new car for a long time, and never bought an expensive/luxury car, I was shocked recently to find that the cost of a comparable base BMW 3 series was roughly the same as a TM3 SR+. Of course the TM3 will have much lower running costs, and out perform (massively) the BMW 3.

Not quite sure when cars got so expensive, I still remember when an Escort cost £5k ....... but that's another story.

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

The corolla comparison is because in terms of total cost of ownership it is similar to a Toyota Corolla. That's the benefit of an electric power train over ICE.

It's also a closer comparison in the US where the prices are a lot closer because of tariffs.

I thought the model 3 was fine in build quality when I tried a UK one. Nothing like a cheap car feel and the sunroof is overt impressive.

But that's not the main selling point of the model 3. It doesn't have to compete with a BMW or Audi on feel because it's better as a car.

Nobody knows what the total cost of ownership of a model 3 will be because none have been out long enough.

Sure electricity is cheaper than petrol per mile with petrol costing about 7 cents a mile and electricity about 2.5 cents. So over 100,000 miles you can save $4,500 if everything else costs the same

But that's not the full story. More expensive cars cost more to insure
A heavier car is also more prone to some faults eg I've seen a video of a model 3 that cracked both twheels going over a pot hole the engineer who did the video said it was likely due to the much heavier mass coupled with the low profile tires and this pot hole cost him $2,600 to replace the wheels

Teslas will probably cost much more to repair when they do go wrong as there isn't a massive secondary parts market as there is for most ICE models. Less people are also competent to work on it so they'd charge more for the work

As I mentioned before I screwed up my bumper a replacement cost £40 I'd guess the same with a model 3 would cost 10-20-30x that

Re the sunroof I agree with you. But that's something any manufacturer could do and many probably will


The total cost of ownership of a corolla Vs a model 3 is unknown
But we can say over 100,000 miles the Tesla will cost $4,500 less to fuel
But the Tesla costs $20,000 more to buy and likely more expensive to insure
I doubt the corolla will cost $15,000 more to maintain over its life than a Tesla
If anything I'd bet a Tesla costs more to repair when it does go wrong so even if less frequently it will cost more per time

Most the Tesla maintenance costs I've seen are from high mileage Tesla's which by definition are all motorway miles to clock up such high miles in a short number of years. Well an ICE can probably do 5x as many motorway miles Vs mixed driving for the same maintenance. So a 200,000 mile Tesla is probably more akin to a 40,000 mile urban ICE. Motorway mile ICE also can do very high mileage for low maintenance because motorway miles are so much less stressful per mile driven

Now again Tesla has a purpose fun fast premium car
For that it works
To pretend or manipulate to say it's as economical as a corolla or focus is probably just fake news

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Having not bought a new car for a long time, and never bought an expensive/luxury car, I was shocked recently to find that the cost of a comparable base BMW 3 series was roughly the same as a TM3 SR+. Of course the TM3 will have much lower running costs, and out perform (massively) the BMW 3.

That's like comparing which premium watch is the best when most people don't want or need or own a premium watch. The best selling cars in the UK are Fiesta Focus Corsa. Not the BMW 3 series

So if you want to claim Tesla's (all models) will take a significant share of the premium market sure I can see that
But 20% share of a market that is 15% of cars is just 3% of the market

Still significant and gives Tesla the ability to sell about 2.5 million cars per year (S X 3 Y R combined)
Roughly the same volume as BMW is today. Tesla might get to that point around 2025-30 with the support of continued government incentives

Still a big achievement
No need to pretend it's going to take over the Toyota Corolla or focus or fiesta segments or that a model 3 is cheaper than a corolla which it almost certainly isn't

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Having not bought a new car for a long time, and never bought an expensive/luxury car, I was shocked recently to find that the cost of a comparable base BMW 3 series was roughly the same as a TM3 SR+. Of course the TM3 will have much lower running costs, and out perform (massively) the BMW 3.

Not quite sure when cars got so expensive, I still remember when an Escort cost £5k ....... but that's another story.

About 5 or 6 years ago, PCP had a lot to answer for at the lower ends. Replacement models had a stiff jump in price from say around 13k to closer to 20k over a couple of years. Certainly bmw/audi etc primarily lease vehicles so actual main published cost can be a made up number as they are never actually sold at that price.



My older car is a 3 series type sports saloon, otr price was 23k in 2000 which with pure inflation would be about 35k today. The current 'replacement' model is about 40k OTR but you could probably order it for a bit less so its about the same.
I imported it of course and paid about 13k all in so from that perspective prices have got ridiculous.... ....but strangely enough if I wanted to buy a replacement tomorrow (diesel obs not petrol) it would cost me about 24k if I did the deal tomorrow and I could have the car within a week. Strange as it used to take about 2 months from ordering to delivery, guess theres a few diesel ones sitting about...



My 2007 car was about 13k all in brand new and with inflation would be around 17k. Its current replacement is around 23k otr. Im sure I could get it cheaper but I did spec my car out myself so had to wait on it. The latest model replaced mine but it was for a massive jump in price.



As Ive mentioned before I was looking at a suzuki jimny for a friend (I cant justify yet another car!) and last years model is 13k otr from a dealer, next years is 20k. Thats a big jump and even as someone pointed out the improvements, better styling etc, its still a wee off roader designed to drive between trees in forests in Germany (or at least one German hunter told me).



Both replacements for my own cars are well into their development cycle so cost reductions etc have probably been incorporated in their prices and kit levels are by and large higher but whatever the motoring equivalent of moores law should be in effect.
Engines are much more complicated now for emissions purposes so that adds to the cost.


I suspect the real world costs should really be a lot lot higher these days, certainly if finance etc gets cut then car companies will have to charge what it actually costs them. I would expect new car costs to increase to compensate for the loss of earnings on their finance side. Another reason to see the move to EV as apart from batteries it should cut costs in a lot of areas.


Particularly if you go the 'minimalist' or 'spartan' vibe of certain car models ;-) If you only produce a couple of models with only one drivetrain and limited interiors then its a tighter ship. Maybe thats the way things will go, maybe people will adapt, enough seem to be going for poverty white/silver spec pcp models so that might become the normal going forward?


Saying that though I agree with Martyn, my mate paid more for his Tesla 3 than I did for my house.... ;-)

I think the lesson here is that I should charge more ;-)

Martyn1981

joefizz wrote: »

Particularly if you go the 'minimalist' or 'spartan' vibe of certain car models ;-) If you only produce a couple of models with only one drivetrain and limited interiors then its a tighter ship. Maybe thats the way things will go, maybe people will adapt, enough seem to be going for poverty white/silver spec pcp models so that might become the normal going forward?

That's one of the beauties of the BEV, standardisation of the drivetrain. Tesla are using the same motor in the TM3 and TMY, putting 3 of them in the Roadster, and 4 of them in the semi. Imagine the savings from that kind of cross utilisation.

Even if you can't deploy multiples, then companies might only need 3 motors (small, medium and large), or perhaps it would be cheaper to produce one, but limit it depending on application.

I do feel sorry for ICE engineers, specialists trying to find every more clever ways to get at more power, torque or efficiency, all that knowledge lost like tears in rain.

Hexane

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I was shocked recently to find that the cost of a comparable base BMW 3 series was roughly the same as a TM3 SR+

A quick Google shows BMW 3 series "From £31,460" and Tesla Model 3 "From £42,000"

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

That's one of the beauties of the BEV, standardisation of the drivetrain. Tesla are using the same motor in the TM3 and TMY, putting 3 of them in the Roadster, and 4 of them in the semi. Imagine the savings from that kind of cross utilisation.

Even if you can't deploy multiples, then companies might only need 3 motors (small, medium and large), or perhaps it would be cheaper to produce one, but limit it depending on application.

I do feel sorry for ICE engineers, specialists trying to find every more clever ways to get at more power, torque or efficiency, all that knowledge lost like tears in rain.

The way you go on you'd think Tesla has 99.5% of the market when in fact it has less than 0.5% of the market and they got to this point with billions in subsidies

Mild hybrids are the near term future of ICE
A small battery and a small motor allowing for stop start and zero rpm during coasting improving ICE efficiency some 5-10%

Tesla have already solved BEVs
UK Government subsidies should be removed
No need for £3.5k bungs and 0% BIK rates to enrich Marty stock position at the cost of UK pensions NHS and schools

Martyn1981

Hexane wrote: »

A quick Google shows BMW 3 series "From £31,460" and Tesla Model 3 "From £42,000"

Tesla is less the plug in grant, and I did say comparable, as my understanding of BMW's is that almost everything is 'an extra' ...... "will you be wanting wheels and seats too Sir?"

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

That's one of the beauties of the BEV, standardisation of the drivetrain. Tesla are using the same motor in the TM3 and TMY

Another reality check

ICE engines and drivetrains are still far far cheaper to manufacture than electric motors and batteries by about $10,000