BEVs deals and information

GreatApe

silverwhistle wrote: »

I'm utterly astonished..:D

The degree I did back in the mid 1970s was modern history, so absolutely no technical background, but even thenI thought it not a long term solution to be burning fossil fuels. A great transitional technology, but we really should be moving along faster and we should have started earlier.

It seems that some on here on some similar threads think that short term capitalist profit making excuses all sorts of actions in lobbying and telling lies. I have absolutely no problem with profit, in spite of all those Marxist lecturers;), but do with the fact that all the social losses are conveniently ignored in their P&L accounts.

Fossil fuels have net positive social benefits so the profit and loss would be a bigger profit if you included the social Benefits

Not least the benefits of natural gas having saved millions of lives and probably hundreds of millions of sick days (this is just in the UK more worldwide) by allowing the average person to be able to heat their homes to a decent level for the first time in human history

But of course the propaganda is just one way you don't hear about the millions of lives saved and extended by fossil fuels

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

You can't make a Tesla car with a petrol engine. ICE bits are different shapes and sizes. Thats why Tesla get more internal space out of the same external footprint as an ICE car. That's true for pretty much all the 'ground up' EV designs.

A model 3 is just a small sedan it's not a magic there are bigger class petrol cars

Here is a comparison of a Toyota Corolla Vs a model 3
It's a $20k Vs $40k car (for the lower end versions for both)
And I think the journalist is fair, sure the $40k car is better because well it costs twice as much
Get the Tesla if the extra money is worth it for you, get the Toyota if you want Hassel free good reliable affordable car

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-versus-toyota-corolla-compared-photos-specs-features-2019-10

As I keep saying Tesla has a purpose
A premium car just like expensive watches they have a market and a demand

For all non premium brands (80% of the market) they need their BEVs to be more or less same price as their oil cars. It makes no sense at all to pay £30k for a BEV Hyundai when the same model in petrol can be purchased for £20k. And it makes even less sense of you live in the USA where petrol costs 50p a litre

The fact remains Despite BEVs getting often quite huge government subsidies like $7,500 dollar sub in the US or £3.5k on the UK that oil cars vastly outsell BEVs. I hope BEVs improve and the cost comes down at current cost differential most consumers will/are opting for oil cars

GreatApe

GreatApe wrote: »

Fossil fuels have net positive social benefits so the profit and loss would be a bigger profit if you included the social Benefits

Not least the benefits of natural gas having saved millions of lives and probably hundreds of millions of sick days (this is just in the UK more worldwide) by allowing the average person to be able to heat their homes to a decent level for the first time in human history

But of course the propaganda is just one way you don't hear about the millions of lives saved and extended by fossil fuels

This is one of the obvious direct visual and easy to understand benefits of fossil fuels

There are also many indirect benefits

Fossil fuels enabled mass electrification which saved countless lives and improved health and wellbeing

Electrification enabled the true industrial revolution of the 1940-1970 period in the west (1990-2030 period is electrification of the middle income countries like China India turkey south America etc). This mass production of goods made life easier and allowed more resources to be spent on healthcare pensions social care etc

Fossil fuels were and still are a massive massive enabler of wealth health and security


But like most things there will be a time when they are replaced as new tech takes over
This transmission will likely take 100 years and arguably we can say it started 2000 and will complete around 2100 if advanced AI comes then this 100 year transition can be done in 50 years or maybe less.

We are not going to throw away our health and wellbeing by banning fossil fuels before their time

And it makes no sense to pretend fossil fuels were a net negative in the past or are today when clearly they saved humanity for death destruction poverty and I'll health

Martyn1981

ABrass wrote: »

You can't make a Tesla car with a petrol engine. ICE bits are different shapes and sizes. Thats why Tesla get more internal space out of the same external footprint as an ICE car. That's true for pretty much all the 'ground up' EV designs.

Absolutely true. Also look to the safety ratings of the Tesla's. The front is designed to buckle, fold and collapse, and whilst your shopping in the frunk might get squished, it means that there is no engine block trying to say hello to the front seat occupants, hence loads of protection.

Only GA would suggest taking the best BEV's on the road, that are already cheaper (TCO terms) than an ICEV, and adding an ICE!!!!

JKenH

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Absolutely true. Also look to the safety ratings of the Tesla's. The front is designed to buckle, fold and collapse, and whilst your shopping in the frunk might get squished, it means that there is no engine block trying to say hello to the front seat occupants, hence loads of protection.

No petrol fires either. I once arrived on the scene of an accident where a car was on fire and the driver trapped by his legs perished.

Still I hear Teslas are prone to other fires.

Martyn1981

JKenH wrote: »

No petrol fires either. I once arrived on the scene of an accident where a car was on fire and the driver trapped by his legs perished.

Still I hear Teslas are prone to other fires.

Nope, prone is untrue. Their fire rate is far less than that of an ICE.

What you may be referring to are some high publicity stories about Tesla fires, part of the FUD campaign, you might say. One, as I recall, several years back made for massive coverage being a new car, but on further inspection the cause was found to be the bullet that the occupant had fired into the floor (battery compartment)!

Sadly, whilst almost every individual Tesla fire gets enormous coverage, other marques get very little, like last years massive recall of 100's of thousands of BMW's.

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Nope, prone is untrue. Their fire rate is far less than that of an ICE.

When you mean ICE I think you mean petrol.... i.e. not diesel... ;-)
I always thought one the main source of fires in a front crash was brake fluid hitting the hot parts of the engine... ..certainly in all the cars Ive owned that was the only safety recall to fit a rubber stopper to the brake line to stop it rubbing and potentially spilling onto the engine... ...could well be urban myth though.


Leaving the whole shale oil industry ponzi funded by cheap credit thing aside and whilst projections are that oil prices will go down in a global recession, at some point in the next 10 years they are going to go through the roof and perhaps only come down after the move away from fossil fuelled cars, boats etc.


Ive mentioned Ive changed my mind about Tesla but Ive also mentioned that I see difficulty for them next year. If they survive next year, then great...
Ive been in a model 3 in the US and here in the UK and I have taken exception to people comparing them with BMW, Audi (as much as I hate the marques) and Alfas etc. They arent. Not by a long shot. Ive never been in a Dacia but thats what sprang to mind when opening the fuel flap on an early Tesla 3 in the US. cheap, plastic crap. However the iphone generation are used to cheap plastic crap dressed up (well since Steve Jobs demise anyway).
So no, the comparison with mid range cars is just in terms of size and money, in terms of what you get for that money then no, not in a million years. Comparing Tesla 3s with 20 grand mid sized cars in terms of quality is probably a better comparison (although the Tesla 3s here are better quality than the US one - which was early I admit).
You really cant compare 45 grand german/italian/japanese cars with a Tesla because they arent even in the same ballpark.
Anecdotally the people I know with Tesla 3s here in the UK have migrated from much more expensive ICE cars. Most had put their names down early hoping that production would never ramp up in time and they would get a discounted model S. (had a look the other day and the company model Ss 2nd hand are cheaper than Model 3s, free supercharging, no road tax, now theres a bargain!)



The Tesla 3 attracts the nerdy people with tech degrees like me. Go on to the forums and its like the apple cult, every negative is painted like a positive. If you are not used to that sort of fan like behaviour then its going to get really old really quickly. But thats not Teslas market, there are enough nerdy tech people like me with more money than sense to buy up Teslas production line for the next couple of years. Thats where I see them doing really well, provided they get the pricing right and sort out the recall issues, although that has more to do with product lifecycle than any particular marque (Ive had cars in the dealers more in their first year than the next 6 years). As I mention elsewhere software doesnt fix stuff, GIGO and whilst you can add spotify over the air and please the masses, thats not to say something cool and nerdy wont have safety ramifications down the line when real people get to play with it. The over the air updates will be a gamechanger in terms of cars though and about time.



Things like the sentry mode will be industry standard and might make car thieves wear masks from now on... well until the software for recognising gait kicks in and starts doing pre-crime ;-)



Its about progression though and the clientelle going forward. Im of the generation where a good solid click switch or nice clunk sound from the door show build quality as opposed to one morning turning your car on with an app, getting in and seeing overnight you have your spotify account installed, online, logged in and playing the last track you played yesterday on your iphone. Cooollll....
(thats not to say I wasnt sold a pup as well with the idea of nice click buttons being a watchword for quality)



It is the future though... but I wouldnt put my money on it ;-)

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Absolutely true. Also look to the safety ratings of the Tesla's. The front is designed to buckle, fold and collapse, and whilst your shopping in the frunk might get squished, it means that there is no engine block trying to say hello to the front seat occupants, hence loads of protection.

Only GA would suggest taking the best BEV's on the road, that are already cheaper (TCO terms) than an ICEV, and adding an ICE!!!!

Plenty of new cars have 5 star safety rating it's not unique to Tesla

Plus Not that many cars end their life with a high speed front on collision

JKenH

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Nope, prone is untrue. Their fire rate is far less than that of an ICE.

What you may be referring to are some high publicity stories about Tesla fires, part of the FUD campaign, you might say. One, as I recall, several years back made for massive coverage being a new car, but on further inspection the cause was found to be the bullet that the occupant had fired into the floor (battery compartment)!

Sadly, whilst almost every individual Tesla fire gets enormous coverage, other marques get very little, like last years massive recall of 100's of thousands of BMW's.

Lawyers for the family of a man who died in a fiery Tesla Model S crash are calling the vehicle a 'death trap' in a lawsuit against the company

https://apple.news/AQXQRlpW2SSyTM4duDGRNyQ

GreatApe

joefizz wrote: »

When you mean ICE I think you mean petrol.... i.e. not diesel... ;-)
I always thought one the main source of fires in a front crash was brake fluid hitting the hot parts of the engine... ..certainly in all the cars Ive owned that was the only safety recall to fit a rubber stopper to the brake line to stop it rubbing and potentially spilling onto the engine... ...could well be urban myth though.

Leaving the whole shale oil industry ponzi funded by cheap credit thing aside and whilst projections are that oil prices will go down in a global recession, at some point in the next 10 years they are going to go through the roof and perhaps only come down after the move away from fossil fuelled cars, boats etc.

Ive mentioned Ive changed my mind about Tesla but Ive also mentioned that I see difficulty for them next year. If they survive next year, then great...
Ive been in a model 3 in the US and here in the UK and I have taken exception to people comparing them with BMW, Audi (as much as I hate the marques) and Alfas etc. They arent. Not by a long shot. Ive never been in a Dacia but thats what sprang to mind when opening the fuel flap on an early Tesla 3 in the US. cheap, plastic crap. However the iphone generation are used to cheap plastic crap dressed up (well since Steve Jobs demise anyway).
So no, the comparison with mid range cars is just in terms of size and money, in terms of what you get for that money then no, not in a million years. Comparing Tesla 3s with 20 grand mid sized cars in terms of quality is probably a better comparison (although the Tesla 3s here are better quality than the US one - which was early I admit).
You really cant compare 45 grand german/italian/japanese cars with a Tesla because they arent even in the same ballpark.
Anecdotally the people I know with Tesla 3s here in the UK have migrated from much more expensive ICE cars. Most had put their names down early hoping that production would never ramp up in time and they would get a discounted model S. (had a look the other day and the company model Ss 2nd hand are cheaper than Model 3s, free supercharging, no road tax, now theres a bargain!)

The Tesla 3 attracts the nerdy people with tech degrees like me. Go on to the forums and its like the apple cult, every negative is painted like a positive. If you are not used to that sort of fan like behaviour then its going to get really old really quickly. But thats not Teslas market, there are enough nerdy tech people like me with more money than sense to buy up Teslas production line for the next couple of years. Thats where I see them doing really well, provided they get the pricing right and sort out the recall issues, although that has more to do with product lifecycle than any particular marque (Ive had cars in the dealers more in their first year than the next 6 years). As I mention elsewhere software doesnt fix stuff, GIGO and whilst you can add spotify over the air and please the masses, thats not to say something cool and nerdy wont have safety ramifications down the line when real people get to play with it. The over the air updates will be a gamechanger in terms of cars though and about time.

Things like the sentry mode will be industry standard and might make car thieves wear masks from now on... well until the software for recognising gait kicks in and starts doing pre-crime ;-)

Its about progression though and the clientelle going forward. Im of the generation where a good solid click switch or nice clunk sound from the door show build quality as opposed to one morning turning your car on with an app, getting in and seeing overnight you have your spotify account installed, online, logged in and playing the last track you played yesterday on your iphone. Cooollll....
(thats not to say I wasnt sold a pup as well with the idea of nice click buttons being a watchword for quality)

It is the future though... but I wouldnt put my money on it ;-)

Tesla had done a lot of things correctly
Such as referral benefits to existing customers
Bring on a new customer and get some free super charging
As a Tesla owner looking to refer friends and family your going to paint a hugely positive picture because you are incentivised to sell it. In fact the way the human mind works you will truely be more happy with a lessor product you sell than a greater product you don't sell

Youtube also highly promotes Tesla because many of the channels are dedicated to Tesla
They are hardly going to say this is !!!! don't buy it because then their channels will shrink over time

And there are a lot of well meaning but totally clueless Tesla drivers.
For instance I suspect many of them have never driven a brand new $40-60k car so when they say it's the best car they have driven it's probably 100% factual because their pool of cars is probably 3-5 old second hand middle or lower end cars upto that point

Plus of course Tesla probably has more individual shareholders like Marty who will promote the car company because it's directly linked to his pocket

He will say things like BEVs are cheaper to own despite the fact he refuses to give up his oil car and buy a BEV because......they are not cheaper to own :rotfl:

There is a space for Tesla it's a premium make they will survive for sure
For every other non premium brand they need to get BEV costs down to near petrol/diesel car prince points

I'm a mild tech geek Tesla interests me and I have the money
However I ask myself what's the aim what's the point.
The only reason I can come up with is to show off and I don't like that that is the only reason
So I'll keep my current car until it needs replacing and when it does something like a ford focus would be the smarter decision at around 17-18k rather than a Tesla at £40k or even a 2-3 year old focus at around £10k