A Question for Tory Supporters

triathlon

Herzlos wrote: »

They've been convinced that Labour will be worse.

Of course, it's a choice of having part of your arm blown off or the whole arm itself

Tromking

Arklight wrote: »

You mean they represent their constituents, many of whom are working class and aren't white?

Or "good people" as you sneeringly refer to them.

Like I said they resort to identity politics in order to get re-elected. OK for them personally, but plays dreadfully with the wider country.
I especially liked her justification for sending her now errant son to a fee paying school.....”Black Caribbean Mothers, go the extra mile for their Sons!”.
The inference being that Mothers of other racial groups don’t I suppose..
That said I do find her very likeable, but she’d be a dreadful Home Secretary though.

triathlon

Moby wrote: »

Not if people are fair minded and have an understanding that the perspective of a black woman or man in the UK might be very different to their own.

There is not one doubt in my head that if a political saviour turned up that could unite the UK who mastered that balance of fairness, quality of life with an attitude of giving to your country rather than just taking, and that person happen to be black, the British white voted would welcome that person with open arma

westernpromise

Herzlos wrote: »

Plus, the only racism there is the Finnish girls

So if there's no racism in there, we can reverse the races mentioned, and all her statements will be perfectly unexceptionable, right?

Let's give it a try!

'Brexit was triggered by stupid racists who did not like seeing people who look "white" on their streets' (2017)
'London shouldn't have a black middle-aged mayor' (2015)
'Black girls are unsuitable as nurses - they have never met a white person before' (1996)
'Black people love playing "divide and rule" - we should not play their game' (2012)
'Black people in western societies have benefited from their histories of colonial exploitation' (2012)
'White mums will go to the wall for their children' (2010)

If a Conservative politician said all the above, you'd agree there's no racism there, would you? Pffffft.

phillw

triathlon wrote: »

Of course, it's a choice of having part of your arm blown off or the whole arm itself

But under Labour the NHS will be able to reattach your arm.
Under the conservatives you'll be given a sewing kit and told to do one.

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Why you despise them I've no idea. Personally I could never vote for Corbyn and his beliefs. Though there's nothing personal in it.

So instead of hating Corbyn, you hate the poor and disadvantaged? Hardly an improvement.

westernpromise

triathlon wrote: »

There is not one doubt in my head that if a political saviour turned up that could unite the UK who mastered that balance of fairness, quality of life with an attitude of giving to your country rather than just taking, and that person happen to be black, the British white voted would welcome that person with open arma

Labour voters would not. Labour voters think that someone from an ethnic minority who doesn't vote Labour is a traitor. Anyone you describe would be sneered as a sell-out and an Uncle Tom.

And this is precisely the difference between Labour and everybody else. Everybody else takes people on their actual merits, which is why the first Jewish, gay, and female (x 2) PMs came from the Conservative Party; likewise the first Asian minister for whatever. They got there on merit.

The Labour Party, in contrast, has never given us a PM who wasn't a white middle-class selectively-educated toff, because for them race and gender and orientation and identity are all in effect disabilities to be pitied, but of course mobilised as voting blocs. As a result, the minorities element of the Labour party is and has always been abjectly mediocre. They've never had a female leader because most of their female MPs got there through sexist quotas, so they're MPs because they have two X chromosomes rather than any ability.

The first Asian PM will be a Conservative and will be hated by Labour more because of it.

jimi_man

Arklight wrote: »

There are other political parties you could vote for other than Labour or the Conservatives. My post asks nothing relating to Labour.

Crashing economy - Check
Pound plummeting - Check
Greater net borrowing than all other post war governments combined - Check
Inequality spiralling - Check
Poverty rocketing - Check
Rough sleepers tripled - Check
Brexit chaos - Check
International laughing stock - Check
Crime spiralling - Check
Racism - Check

This is interesting since, on the face of it, the above list would seem to be a damning indictment of the Tories. However when you start to analyse the (admittedly, rather nebulous and non-contextual) list, several points spring to mind.

Crashing economy - What does this mean? Growth wise, the UK has been on a par with or above most of our G7 counterparts since 2010, apart from the odd blip. Inflation wise, it’s been dropping from around 2011 and then generally been kept at or below the target level, again with the odd blip. Unemployment is at the lowest it’s been for many years. Average wage growth has risen commensurately. So it’s unclear what ‘crashing economy’ is supposed to mean?

Pound plummeting – Tricky one this. Obviously it’s not plummeting at all – in fact against the Euro it’s the highest it’s been for about two years. However, over a longer term - say 10 years, it hasn’t really changed. There was a brief spike around 2015 or so, which then fell sharply as a result of the referendum, but other than that it’s been pretty consistent and is currently slightly higher than it was in 2009.

Greater net borrowing – Agreed, no argument here. Though of course it’s much like someone driving a bus off a cliff, then giving the controls to someone else and blaming them for not rescuing the bus. And the deficit trend has been downwards more or less since they took over. But not really their finest hour.

Inequality spiralling – This is just plain rubbish. According to the Inequality Trust using the GINI index, this rose from the mid 90’s to a peak at around 2010. It then dropped in 2010 and hasn’t really changed since.

Poverty rocketing – Again, it’s clearly not rocketing. Up or down. Actually, again it’s stayed fairly level overall according to FullFact. In fact it’s very difficult to define and therefore measure as well as being dependent on different groups of people. The article in FullFact is worth reading. However it’s fair to say that poverty is not rocketing. Overall it dropped post 2010, and is now rising slightly. But it’s still lower than it was in 2010.

Rough sleepers tripled – This is definitely a problem. Whilst one can argue with the figures, there is no doubt that it has increased since the 2009 recession. Whoever wins the election needs to get hold of this.

Brexit chaos - Yep, it has been badly handled and I have to say that every single party in Westminster must shoulder the blame. The only party with a cogent Brexit strategy are the Lib Dems, and this is only because they have done a dramatic U turn from their original stance following the referendum in 2016 when they were going to honour the result. Unusually for the Lib Dems they changed their minds. Anyway Brexit is a whole other argument and probably not for here.

International laughing stock – Hmmm. I travel a lot, mostly outside of Europe. The major talking point and laughing stock appears to be Trump more than anything else. Other countries don't seem concerned with what's happening on our tiny island. But it’s a rather unquantifiable statement.

Crime spiralling - Again this is complete rubbish. The most reliable and consistent measure is the Crime Survey E and W and this shows no real change over the last year. Over the last 10 years it’s continued its inexorable decline. I suppose it could be spiralling downwards, maybe that was what was meant?

Racism – A little bit vague, I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean?

In answer to the original Thread question, I’d say, when there I felt there was another group that could run the country better. At this time I don’t feel that there is, however I’m not opposed to the idea of non-Tory Governments.

I have a question for those of a Labour persuasion. It’s now nearly 10 years since the last Labour administration. Notwithstanding their reluctance for an election (and everyone, even their own party is aware that it’s nothing to do with taking no deal off the table, but a lack of faith in their leadership) why have they produced such a flawed manifesto/economic solution for the future? Bearing in mind how poorly the public think of Labour’s handling of the economy (whether justified or not) you would have thought that they would have taken care to ensure that it was a reasonable, cost effective, sensible and targeted manifesto. But it isn’t, it’s wildly irresponsible and in terms of some of the things they’ve added subsequently – nothing short of bribes to a particular group of voters.

oddjobbpb

The problem I have with the left is this.

Thy can't just agree to differ. I fully realise we get extremes from both sides on this board, I'm talking generally.

If your views differ and you happen to think that grafting, getting on, paying your way and generally making things better for yourself and your children, then the vitriol on facebook etc is incredible. They just can't accept that they could possibly be wrong. There is no tolerance of other views.

Whereas I'm right of centre (as is my right - it's democracy) but I happen to think that if it's your opinion that Corbyn is the new messiah, then by all means vote for him.I accept that I could be wrong.

Evidence would suggest that I'm not, in that, largely, very left wing government does not work well, and although free market capitalism is awful, it's only awful until you compare it to everything elses

phillw

jimi_man wrote: »

I have a question for those of a Labour persuasion. It’s now nearly 10 years since the last Labour administration.

And still conservatives are blaming all their mistakes on the last labour government.

jimi_man wrote: »

Notwithstanding their reluctance for an election (and everyone, even their own party is aware that it’s nothing to do with taking no deal off the table, but a lack of faith in their leadership)

Only you seem to be aware of that. Like the one soldier marching in time.

jimi_man wrote: »

why have they produced such a flawed manifesto/economic solution for the future? Bearing in mind how poorly the public think of Labour’s handling of the economy (whether justified or not) you would have thought that they would have taken care to ensure that it was a reasonable, cost effective, sensible and targeted manifesto. But it isn’t, it’s wildly irresponsible and in terms of some of the things they’ve added subsequently – nothing short of bribes to a particular group of voters.

Maybe they are trying to copy the conservatives? Your criticism of labour is equally valid for conservatives. Who are bribing the money grabbing, foreigner hating group of voters. Labour are going after the rest.

Conservatives promising tax cuts is irresponsible.

westernpromise

I actually think we have weathered Brexit rather well. Unlike the French we don't have gilets jaunes on the streets. We haven't had five republics (or whatever) like the French, or four Reiche like the Germans, or 50 governments (or whatever) since WW2 like the Italians, or no government at all for 18 months like the Belgians. We are generally a moderate and mild-mannered country, and this isn't going to change.

The utter chaos that would have ensued in the wake of Frexit or Grexit or whatever simply hasn't ensued here. To the extent that matters have been shambolic it's because we've got a proper constitution and establishment that have been exploited by Remainers to thwart the referendum result, i.e. because of the subversion of Brexit by its opponents, not its implementation by its supporters. But the point is we've got a proper constitution and establishment.

We've been a stable parliamentary democracy for north of 300 years. We won the Napoleonic Wars because we raised more money to fight them than the French. Napoleon had to stay on the gold standard because nobody would buy his debt, so he bankrupted France. We were able to borrow what it took because everyone knew we'd pay it back.

We still have a disproportionate number of the world's best universities. We are still a magnet to people who want to work hard and get on.

We are still that country.