A Question for Tory Supporters

Arklight

Fran_Klee wrote: »

Nowhere did I say that or even suggest that but don't let that stop you making up your own excuses to have a rant.

You don't know how lucky you are & that's the problem with so many of you snowflake idealists; in Britain just like in the rest of the western world you're at a huge advantage as soon as you're born no matter how rich or poor your parents are.
If you want to see how real poverty affects people look at India, or at most African nations.
Why do you think so many of them try so desperately to get here or the rest of Europe; for the weather?
I don't think you are interested in equality at all, it's just an excuse to have another anti-establishment rant.

You have completely contradicted your own point.

kangoora

Cakeguts wrote: »

When I was going to university ( and there were a lot fewer of them then we didn't have technical colleges called universities) anyone who had to get into university through clearing was looked on as being a failure simply because we all knew then that the popular courses at good universities didn't have places at clearing.

What I don't understand is why people don't realise this now. Plus we have so many dud universities that all they do is to make jobs available for the staff. I live in London and here we have 11 dud universities that could completely disappear and no one would notice they had gone.

The poor students who are duped by their schools into attending them ( at one point I wondered if schools were being paid by universities to send their students to them) would be debt free and working probably in the same jobs as they get after attending these duds. The point about all of this so called university education is that it only benefits the loan companies and the staff.

If you attend a dud university all you are going to get is debt. Nothing else. You will get exactly the same job as you would have done if you had never been because these universities don't offer education levels that are of any use to the UK economy. They don't help anyone get a better job all they do is keep the staff employed.

The problem is that someone who can only get into a dud university generally isn't all that intelligent and I personally don't think that it is as good idea to imply to someone who isn't all that bright that borrowing money is something that they need to do. It is asking for trouble.

A lot of the courses that are run at these "universities" used to be evening class courses but now that they are called degrees students can be charged for them even if the contact time at university is no more than the equivalent of one evening a week for a whole year.

The whole university thing is a massive scam.

Not only that but if the government is wanting to reduce carbon emissions then closing all the dud universities would go a long way towards reducing carbon emissions as buildings are the biggest users of energy. Many university courses could be done at a much smaller cost as distance learning like the Open University courses are now. It would be interesting to see how many people would be keen to study for a degree if they did it at home. Distance learning would mean a smaller loan and no housing costs. A much better system that what we have now.

Wow, this post has to rank as one of the most elitist verbal excrement posts I have ever seen.

My eldest went to one of those so-called 'dud' universities and is shortly to qualify as a Maths teacher, which requires a degree.

My other son also went to a similar Uni, qualified with a first and is now halfway through a Masters and wants to enter medical research when finished.

I presume you're looking down your nose at both of these from your ivory tower, even though one intends a career helping today's youth and the other intending to devote his career to helping people by medical research.

It's very rare that I am actually disgusted by a post on these forums but you've managed it.

BobQ

SingleSue wrote: »

I have always voted Conservative as have my children (one is even a member of the Conservative party and harbours political career aspirations) although I have always been more of a moderate with a few liberal leanings than completely right. None of us are entirely sure who to vote for next month.

It's not so much Brexit (we all voted to remain) but more with the direction things are going in the party. That said, I don't think I could ever vote Labour with a clear conscience either, nor do we want the current confusion and damage to the country to continue which could/would happen with a hung parliament....arrgghh!

I think we've got a lot of reading/sifting and decision making to do in the next month.

A lot of people feel this way I imagine. I cannot see me voting for such a right wing Tory administration but Corbyn fails to inspire too

It is a mess and whoever we vote for. Brexit will dominate the landscape for years. A quick withdrawal agreement is just the start of some very difficult trade negotiations. I think he will win, the trade deal will collapse and we will have a no-deal exit.

While I do not like Corbyn's policies or his fence sitting, I do prefer his style which appears more constructive whereas the Tories spend a lot of time bad mouthing Corbyn rather than explaining their policies.

Arklight

kangoora wrote: »

Wow, this post has to rank as one of the most elitist verbal excrement posts I have ever seen.

My eldest went to one of those so-called 'dud' universities and is shortly to qualify as a Maths teacher, which requires a degree.

My other son also went to a similar Uni, qualified with a first and is now halfway through a Masters and wants to enter medical research when finished.

I presume you're looking down your nose at both of these from your ivory tower, even though one intends a career helping today's youth and the other intending to devote his career to helping people by medical research.

It's very rare that I am actually disgusted by a post on these forums but you've managed it.

It's all he ever writes about. I can't be bothered to read them anymore to be honest.

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

While I do not like Corbyn's policies or his fence sitting, I do prefer his style which appears more constructive whereas the Tories spend a lot of time bad mouthing Corbyn rather than explaining their policies.

We won't know if the fence sitting has ended until there's clarity on core policies. Labour's challenge is appeasing very different views held within party ranks. Concern being that very many Labour voters are going to be alienated. London centric views are out of touch more distant areas.

Cakeguts

kangoora wrote: »

Wow, this post has to rank as one of the most elitist verbal excrement posts I have ever seen.

My eldest went to one of those so-called 'dud' universities and is shortly to qualify as a Maths teacher, which requires a degree.

My other son also went to a similar Uni, qualified with a first and is now halfway through a Masters and wants to enter medical research when finished.

I presume you're looking down your nose at both of these from your ivory tower, even though one intends a career helping today's youth and the other intending to devote his career to helping people by medical research.

It's very rare that I am actually disgusted by a post on these forums but you've managed it.[/QUOTE


Its interesting that you think that because you see I didn't go to university I went to a Polytechnic but the degree courses there required at least two old A levels so that would be A*A* now. The same as the better universities wanted then. Since then I have been as an adult on part time courses to one dud university in London and one in Birmingham. At the one in Birmingham I found someone doing something in their third year on a course that I had done for A levels. So that was 3 years worth of £9000 plus living expenses to get to where I had for A levels. When they finish that course they will have a degree worth the same as two old A levels. They may even qualify as a teacher in a state school. How many parents would want their children to be taught by someone who knew so little about their subject? It isn't fair on the children in school they deserve better.



The London one was even worse in educational standards than the Birmingham one and not only that but many of the students failed the courses because even though the level of education that was provided was extremely low for many of the students it was too difficult and they would all have been better off with an apprenticeship. That university had a hospitality course for which students were paying £9000 per year plus living expenses. When I was young hospitality courses were done at the local colleges for free. Now we have exactly the same courses but students instead of getting them for free now have to pay £9000 per year plus living expenses simply to get a piece of paper with degree written on it. How on earth can that be a better way of providing education? It only benefits the university staff.



Round the corner from me there is a dud university that shows its art work on the fence outside. That work is the kind of thing that we used to do for O level or adults used to do at night school for a hobby. The degrees from there are the levels that used to be achieved a age 16. Those students have had to do an extra 5 years to get to the education level of a 16 year old from 40 years ago but the scandal is that they have had to pay for three of those years. Not only have they lost 3 year's pay but they have been charged £27,000 plus living expenses for basically nothing. What they are getting for their £27,000 in fees a year plus living costs are hobby courses. It is an absolute scandal that dud universities are charging students for hobby courses.



For the one student who comes good at a dud university there are 1000s of others who are left with an extremely expensive piece of paper that has been paid for by a huge loan leaving them seriously in debt and the loss of 3 years of earnings. They have also had an education that implies that borrowing money that you will never earn enough to pay back is a good thing. No wonder so many young people in the UK are in serious debt. The education system encourages it and it encourages those who are not bright enough to realise that they are being scammed.



If we closed all the dud universities and turned the courses into one standard distance learning provided by the Open University people could study courses that would directly improve their employment chances rather than standard degrees that aren't worth anything. Because the courses would all be the same standard of education students would know what they were getting. At the moment the levels of courses vary so much in standard that no one can really know what level of degree they are going to finish up with. Anything from the dud London university that I did a part time course at isn't going to be worth the paper it is written on but those students paid the same for their worthless degrees as the people who have good degrees from top universities who will get far more opportunities from their degrees. These dud universities do not give value for money. They are a complete waste.



There are 11 of them in London. Living in London is more expensive than any other part of the country so there are 1000s of students paying for somewhere to live on top of the fees who will finish up with nothing.



Buildings cause the most carbon emissions and pollution so to have 11 dud universities that offer nothing to the UK economy and are of only of any benefit to the staff that work at them is stupid. If the UK government was serious about reducing pollution it would close them all tomorrow. No one would miss them. The students could get a degree from the Open University or study a vocational course instead.

Moby

Watching Prince Andrew embarrass himself on the beeb last night, couldn't help but think all the privilege and wealth in the world can't buy you integrity. The one thing privilege does though is it gives you insulation to escape the consequences of your actions. If you are rich or privileged it seems you can make mistake after mistake and people tolerate you as a lovable 'rogue'. You seem to be judged by different standards from the rest of us.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/17/arcuri-says-johnson-cast-her-aside-like-one-night-stand

RealElement47

Labour are offering so much free stuff they will get the votes of the masses.

Free internet, four day work week with the same pay, and most importantly help to buy your privately rented home from your landlord even if he doesn't want to sell it to you, he will be forced to sell it to you and the government will subsidise it for poor people who can't get the mortgage.

Arklight

Moby wrote: »

Watching Prince Andrew embarrass himself on the beeb last night, couldn't help but think all the privilege and wealth in the world can't buy you integrity. The one thing privilege does though is it gives you insulation to escape the consequences of your actions. If you are rich or privileged it seems you can make mistake after mistake and people tolerate you as a lovable 'rogue'. You seem to be judged by different standards from the rest of us.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/17/arcuri-says-johnson-cast-her-aside-like-one-night-stand

Apparently, staying repeatedly with a convicted !!!!!phile was the honourable thing to do. Or there might be another far more obvious reason why he was so interested in Epstein and his abhorrent lifestyle. In any case, Andrew will not face anything worse than the gentlest of gentle questioning of Emily Maitlis, before he effectively vanishes from public view.

As you point out, someone who doesn't want to vanish is one of Johnson's many other women, Jennifer Arcuri, who says she stood by him and now finds he puts the phone down on her. Maybe he's busy trying to remember how many children he has.

She is a woman scorned and she has been scorned by someone I could only describe as a pig. But it isn't Johnson and his lying,sticky fingered, dishonest, cruel mates who keep themselves where they are.

It's this weird English subservience to poshness. We do what they tell us, when they tell us. If democracy briefly interferers with their god given dynastic right to never work a day in their lives, we vote for them when they say to. We've been tugging our forelocks to them ever since William the Conqueror had the luckiest and most undeserved of wins over brave Harold Godwinson and his true English army, 1000 years ago.

It doesn't matter what they do, who they do it to, how venal, incompetent, stupid, and corrupt they are. 65% of England wouldn't have it any other way.

kangoora

Cakeguts wrote: »

Its interesting that you think that because you see I didn't go to university I went to a Polytechnic but the degree courses there required at least two old A levels so that would be A*A* now. The same as the better universities wanted then. Since then I have been as an adult on part time courses to one dud university in London and one in Birmingham. At the one in Birmingham I found someone doing something in their third year on a course that I had done for A levels. So that was 3 years worth of £9000 plus living expenses to get to where I had for A levels. When they finish that course they will have a degree worth the same as two old A levels. They may even qualify as a teacher in a state school. How many parents would want their children to be taught by someone who knew so little about their subject? It isn't fair on the children in school they deserve better.

blah blah

I did have a very large response to this but decided not to bore people as you are doing with your rant but I'll pick out a few obvious errors.

At no point in your ill-conceived rant have you produced any evidence to support your crackpot theories, just anecdotal comments.

You say you didn't go to a 'better' university but I presume you believe you've done OK with your career - it kinda disproves your own point that 'lesser' establishments aren't worthwhile - or do you consider yourself a failue?

One person out of 1000's benefits from a 'dud' university degree - utter twaddle, assuming 2.3m people in higher education (figures available unlike your preposterous claims), say 25% graduate yearly (575k), say 50% come from 'good' unis (probably a high estimate, then 287.5k aren't. By your calculation only 287 of them go on to a worthwhile career and 287,213 people YEARLY have wasted their time., I'm pretty sure someone would have picked up on this anomaly if this was the case........

The one thing I can agree on is that there are a number of 'dud' degrees. There are only so many job vacancies for medieval literature, photography, art appreciation etc and yet every Uni seems to offer these meaning the vast majority of people graduating with what I term a 'fluff' degree will not actually get a job in those fields relevant to their degree (apologies to anyone who did those degrees and has been successful in their field ).

Finally, your best yet, shutting down dud universities will significantly impact pollution. Vehicles by far cause the most pollution (not buildings as you state) and, further to the same point, if you shut the universities do you think all those student would go sit in a field - no, they'd be in another building either studying or working causing exactly the same pollution increase as if they were in a university studying!

I'm out now, I can't be bothered arguing further with someone who makes unsubstantiated claims and ends with flat out lies trying to back up their case.