Electric vehicles miles per KWh

GreatApe

Solarchaser wrote: »

Makes sense really.
Most of your fiesta sized cars will do low mileage, meaning they are less polluting, so less of a priority.

So there isn't the bonus of electric mpkw vs mpg in thousands of miles to make the case if your fiesta does 2k miles a year.

The rep mobile size vehicle will do higher average mileage, meaning it's easier to make the tco work out positive for EV.

Regarding phev, they are at best a halfway house, in reality they are over complicated, and so will have high maintenance costs as they get older, and pretty useless as an EV due to poor range, so you have a ice car dragging round heavy batteries as well giving poor real world mpg.
Worst of all worlds really

Regarding your tax bollox you keep spouting great ape, the fact you cant change is that a solar charged electric car is free motoring.
And the taxing of fossil fuel makes it more expensive, of course it does... it should since its helping kill the planet.

Will the government move to taxing electricity, yeah probably, but will they tax it as heavily as fossils, no, they cant as it would push many people into fuel poverty.

Either way, those charging with their own solar..... still wont be paying tax

If you have solar panels you get free motoring?

Does the cars depreciation magically stop?
Does the insurance company think good lad you have solar we.will give you free insurance this year?

BEVs will be charged per mile so how does having solar panels help avoid that?

People without solar can charge at 5p a unit
How many miles can the £6k to install a PV kit buy at 5p a unit?
Just the interest in £6k at 3% will buy you enough electricity to do 14,000 miles and you still have the £6k.....

So if you want to say solar panels get you 'free' electricity
I'm happy to say £6k of capital gets you 'free' electricity too
Or 'free' anything else for that matter from burgers to shoes to beers :beer:

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

Volkswagen 236 billion euro from sales of 11 million cars = 21,400 euro per car
Actually probably less as some of their revenue is their finance arm

Doing the same for other car manufacturers. Data from Wikipedia

Volkswagen 21,400 euro per car
Renault 13,900 euro per car
Nissan 18,200 euro per car
Peugeot 19,600 euro per car

Again these are probably over estimates as the revenue also includes parts financing and logistics
The car sale prices are probably about 75% of the above figures

By comparison a TM3 cheapest option is closer to 45,000 euro significantly more than the average cost of an oil car

You haven't factored in tax, Vat, dealer margin, delivery, registration fee, dealer fitted options etc etc.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

You haven't factored in tax, Vat, dealer margin, delivery, registration fee, dealer fitted options etc etc.

Thanks yes good point

However on the other side those figures are inclusive of other services like sales of parts and finance which on Peugeot figures makes up 25% of the revenue. So that should cover 20% vat plus delivery plus a few other things too.

I'd like to know the actual figure if anyone has a spare couple of hours to go through the top 100 EU car sales and Google a competitive achievable price for each

mmmmikey

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The average price of a new car sold in the UK is now around £35k, so comparable to the TM3.

In the US, they are finding that the most common trade-ins for the TM3 are from a lower price bracket of cars that are around $25k (new). So looks like people are trading up based on cost of ownership not just purchase price.


Edit - Wow, the average s/h price is now £13k.

I'm struggling to understand that £35k figure, it does seem high. Is that the average price of a new model, or the average price of all new car sales?



As far as the secondhand market is concerned, it will be interesting to see how that pans out. I can see the situation where prices of new models drop and/or you get more for your money, making 3 to 5 year models start to look obsolete and I'm certainly struggling to see a situation where a 10 year old model looks viable as a secondhand purchase. So does this mean we'll see the market flooded with very cheap 3 to 5 year old EVs, or does it mean owners will hang on to them to avoid a massive hit on depreciation? Who knows?


One way or the other, as much as I favour clean vehicles I can't help thinking it will be 15 or 20 years before EVs become really mainstream and widely used, which I suspect is a rather more pessimistic view than most hold here. Keeping in mind too that as of today the vast majority of vehicles sold are ICE and they will be on the road for 10 or 15 years themselves.


I also can't help thinking that over this timescale lifestyle changes that diminish the importance of private car ownership become significant, reducing the number of vehicles on the road and annual mileages which again impacts EV deployment rates. Instead of investing in a second car for the school run, why not invest in the local school so the incentive for driving is reduced? Instead of a tedious commute to work, why not fix the housing and employment markets to encourage a greater degree of homeworking or shorter commutes? Are there better alternatives to the sales reps motorway mileages? Why drive to the supermarket when you can have the bulk of your groceries delivered and pop into the local shop for milk, bread, etc? And so on. The car has become a pretty much essential tool for some rather than something that is life enhancing, but only because we have made it that way. There is no inherent reason why this has to be so.

GreatApe

mmmmikey wrote: »

I'm struggling to understand that £35k figure, it does seem high. Is that the average price of a new model, or the average price of all new car sales?

As far as the secondhand market is concerned, it will be interesting to see how that pans out. I can see the situation where prices of new models drop and/or you get more for your money, making 3 to 5 year models start to look obsolete and I'm certainly struggling to see a situation where a 10 year old model looks viable as a secondhand purchase. So does this mean we'll see the market flooded with very cheap 3 to 5 year old EVs, or does it mean owners will hang on to them to avoid a massive hit on depreciation? Who knows?

One way or the other, as much as I favour clean vehicles I can't help thinking it will be 15 or 20 years before EVs become really mainstream and widely used, which I suspect is a rather more pessimistic view than most hold here. Keeping in mind too that as of today the vast majority of vehicles sold are ICE and they will be on the road for 10 or 15 years themselves.

I also can't help thinking that over this timescale lifestyle changes that diminish the importance of private car ownership become significant, reducing the number of vehicles on the road and annual mileages which again impacts EV deployment rates. Instead of investing in a second car for the school run, why not invest in the local school so the incentive for driving is reduced? Instead of a tedious commute to work, why not fix the housing and employment markets to encourage a greater degree of homeworking or shorter commutes? Are there better alternatives to the sales reps motorway mileages? Why drive to the supermarket when you can have the bulk of your groceries delivered and pop into the local shop for milk, bread, etc? And so on. The car has become a pretty much essential tool for some rather than something that is life enhancing, but only because we have made it that way. There is no inherent reason why this has to be so.

You can argue 90% of goods and services are not essential but that mosses the point we are human and like non essential things

There is currently no need to rush into BEVs they are no cleaner than oil cars on the markets that matter....China grid is marignal coal so BEVs are coal powered. USA is marginal coal or gas depending on state and month so BEVs don't help much for now. France or Norway on the other hand is cleaner grid so clean BEVs

Software will be the thing that improves transportation
It will allow cars , oil or EV, to become much more efficient
Transport as a service can match average demand rather than peak demand
So instead of people travelling in 2 ton oil cars with software they may hail a 500kg two seater tandem oil car or EV. Even if oil car it's probably 5 x as efficient as the 2 ton human car. But probably it will be electric as they can last much longer do 1 million miles reliably


Also it might be desirable to concentrate growth in the megacities
For example the UK will grow by 15 million people over the next 30 years
Why not put 10 million of them into the M25?
Hackney only has 0.25 cars per home it's a dense borough and everything is close
Putting 10 million people into a more dense London might result in 1 million cars
Putting 10 million people into rUK would result in something closer to 6 million cars

Likewise building mid rise flats for 10 million people in London will take less space heating (perhaps close to zero with good design) than building semis and detached homes for 10 million in rUK

That would be a measure I'd strongly support
It's green plus I think it's overall in the nations economic interests
Let London grow to 20 million!!!

Solarchaser

If you have solar panels you get free motoring?

Does the cars depreciation magically stop?
Does the insurance company think good lad you have solar we.will give you free insurance this year?

BEVs will be charged per mile so how does having solar panels help avoid that?

People without solar can charge at 5p a unit
How many miles can the £6k to install a PV kit buy at 5p a unit?
Just the interest in £6k at 3% will buy you enough electricity to do 14,000 miles and you still have the £6k.....

So if you want to say solar panels get you 'free' electricity
I'm happy to say £6k of capital gets you 'free' electricity too
Or 'free' anything else for that matter from burgers to shoes to beers

Of course it's free motoring, unless of course you are comparing it to running the ice car without insurance,, no rfl, no depreciation and on thin air.....if you are a monumental pedant, you can pick holes In anything it would seem.

EV is charged per mile... pray tell me how.... is this like the brexit irish border arrangements, it's a great full proof technical arrangement, you just cant tell me how it works??

Why would you pay £6k for solar, when you can diy for much less?
maybe you are thinking of 5 years ago.

Interest in £6k is 14000 miles.... really?
14000 at 4m/kwh is 3500kwh, at £0.13/kwh is £455 so nearly 8% interest in that same year, great investment.

You should probably use that money to invest in more nukes.
Oh and your burgers, shoes and beers.... but clearly not in free electricity from solar.... I mean, that would be ethical, and green. You would be better going to a green and ethical board to talk about that sort of stuff.... oh;)

Solarchaser

Ahh yes back to the old "the grid is dirty so EV's are dirty" argument.

Its lazy, and obviously flawed.
I dont get my energy from China or the USA, so the point is .... unsurprisingly irrelevant.

But it's ok, software, software, software:D

Windows xp was launched with more than 13 million known issues, but yeah, software will solve the world.

All we need to do is control.... alt, delete

ed110220

GreatApe wrote: »

Where did you get that £35k figure from?
This doesn't sound true looking at the top 20 list most of them are sub £25k some in the top 10 are even sub £15k like the Corsa and fiesta

£33,559 according to: http://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/average-new-car-price-risen-38-per-cent-past-decade-says-cap-hpi/146938

Average price of a second hand car was £12,967 according to: https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/average-used-car-price-november-2018/

Figures are probably skewed by relatively small numbers of high priced vehicles, which is why some breakdown of prices would be more useful (eg say for new cars <£10k 15%, £10-15k 30%, £15-20k 25% etc) but that's something I can't easily find.

mmmmikey

ed110220 wrote: »

£33,559 according to: http://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/average-new-car-price-risen-38-per-cent-past-decade-says-cap-hpi/146938

Average price of a second hand car was £12,967 according to: https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/average-used-car-price-november-2018/

Figures are probably skewed by relatively small numbers of high priced vehicles, which is why some breakdown of prices would be more useful (eg say for new cars <£10k 15%, £10-15k 30%, £15-20k 25% etc) but that's something I can't easily find.

Thanks - I find that surprising but it does shed some light.

To quote from the article:

"PCP has also shifted focus from the entry price to the monthly repayment, and having a model to advertise as “from £9,995” is no longer a priority – cars are more likely to be advertised on their monthly payment."

PCP rates are fundamentally affected by residual rates - i.e. secondhand values. This again gives rise to my point about what happens to secondhand values in a market where new prices would be expected to reduce as technology and volumes drive them down. It is possible we will see a situation where new prices will fall significantly denting the costs in the used markets, meaning that PCP rates will remain high thereby acting as a brake on sales.

GreatApe

Solarchaser wrote: »

Of course it's free motoring, unless of course you are comparing it to running the ice car without insurance,, no rfl, no depreciation and on thin air.....if you are a monumental pedant, you can pick holes In anything it would seem.

EV is charged per mile... pray tell me how.... is this like the brexit irish border arrangements, it's a great full proof technical arrangement, you just cant tell me how it works??

Why would you pay £6k for solar, when you can diy for much less?
maybe you are thinking of 5 years ago.

Interest in £6k is 14000 miles.... really?
14000 at 4m/kwh is 3500kwh, at £0.13/kwh is £455 so nearly 8% interest in that same year, great investment.

You should probably use that money to invest in more nukes.
Oh and your burgers, shoes and beers.... but clearly not in free electricity from solar.... I mean, that would be ethical, and green. You would be better going to a green and ethical board to talk about that sort of stuff.... oh;)

You said free motoring there is no free motoring not with BEVs not with ICEs

You can charge at a night rate of 5p

How will EVs be charged per mile? Probably GPS and license plate recognition and tracking. You think the government is just going to let £30 billion a year of fuel duties and taxes dissappear? Or perhaps even a much higher fixed annual road tax think £1140 rather than £140 pa

There is no 'free' solar energy so stop going on about free solar energy