Electric vehicles miles per KWh

Martyn1981

GreatApe wrote: »

That's not the point of this thread
Given enough time everything will happen
Humans will become cyborgs this century or die out
That is a certainty

The point of this thread was to point out BEVs need more electricity than most people assume she to charging losses and standing losses and to some extent the fact that they are charged by marginal generation. But don't worry I'm not as anal as some others on this board so feel free to diverge from the opening post that's more or less a given in any discussion

But I answered that way back at the start.

If you want to include the energy consumed (lost) outside of the battery, then you also have to include all losses in the FF supply chain, which are vast.

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Then you need to do the same for petrol and diesel and include the efficiency losses from source to fuel tank (battery).

So, exploration, drilling, extraction, shipping, refining, transport to petrol station, pumps to fuel tank.

The refining process alone consumes around 5-6kWh of energy per gallon, enough to move a BEV ~20 miles. So halfway for free (v's petrol/diesel).

As always with those trying to spread FUD, you need to avoid (or ignore) context, as that will bring your house of cards crashing down.

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

Oh and the Fiesta starts at 15k. Seriously you need to be better with your numbers

£13,575 two separate quotes just now within ten miles of me without searching muchbso may even be able to find better

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

But I answered that way back at the start.

If you want to include the energy consumed (lost) outside of the battery, then you also have to include all losses in the FF supply chain, which are vast.

As always with those trying to spread FUD, you need to avoid (or ignore) context, as that will bring your house of cards crashing down.

And I countered this argument saying sure there are energy costs in making diesel or petrol but there are also energy costs in making and transporting gas and coal to a power station to make the power to charge the EV

So your point is moot

Sure you can charge EVs with wind power but the big important car markets aren't anywhere near marginal green, China is marginal coal and the USA is marginal coal/gas depending on state and time of year

1961Nick

Martyn1981 wrote: »

PCP rates are likely to be a major driver of BEV's going forward.

The monthly rates have to reflect costs, including depreciation. But BEV depreciation is low, whllst a small but steady shift in demand from ICE to BEV will most likely reduce s/h values of ICE's. That lower residual value will have to be factored in to the PCP rate, giving BEV's a double win when costs are compared.

This is still speculation, but in the US where Ford and GM are more like giant banks than auto companies now, their businesses are highly dependent on PCP and therefore residual values - they could be at serious risk as the market shifts, if the value of lease end vehicles falls.

Contract hire rates for BEVs are already falling as they establish strong residual values. This demonstrates that the market has overcome it's fear of EVs & the technology has now entered the mainstream.

Shortage of supply is also adding value to used vehicles & this should result in some very attractive PCP deals.

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Nope.

For RE the fuel is provided free at the 'powerstation'. The powerstation is not free.

FF's are not 'free' they have to be found, extracted, refined and transported ......... to the powerstation. The powerstation is not free.

Man oh man ...... does this really need explaining!!!!!!!!!

Fossil fuels are 'free'

They are just there
Once you build a gas rig you just have to do a little bit of maintenance

In the same way sunshine is just there
Once you build sun rig (PV system) you just have to do a little bit of maintenance

Free gas Energy or free sun energy both are 'free'

The gas you can use to heat your home or run it through a gas power station
Even the gas power station once you build the power rig you just have to do a little bit of maintenance so that's 'free' too


I'm not thick enough to think any of this is 'free' but your comrade is trying to claim solar is 'free it's just the catching it that costs money'....... By they definition more or less everything is 'free'

Martyn1981

GreatApe wrote: »

Fossil fuels are 'free'

They are just there
Once you build a gas rig you just have to do a little bit of maintenance

In the same way sunshine is just there
Once you build sun rig (PV system) you just have to do a little bit of maintenance

Free gas Energy or free sun energy both are 'free'

The gas you can use to heat your home or run it through a gas power station
Even the gas power station once you build the power rig you just have to do a little bit of maintenance so that's 'free' too


I'm not thick enough to think any of this is 'free' but your comrade is trying to claim solar is 'free it's just the catching it that costs money'....... By they definition more or less everything is 'free'

You seem a little confused.

The PV system provides energy, from free fuel. The oil rig (not free) is used to extract crude oil, not produce energy.

Once again - RE powerstations use free fuel, whilst FF powerstations have to buy fuel, fuel which itself has already consumed vast amounts of energy and money to get there.

And again, for further clarity, an oil rig is part of the non-free FF supply chain. Whereas the fuel supply chain for RE is .... well ...... free.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Contract hire rates for BEVs are already falling as they establish strong residual values. This demonstrates that the market has overcome it's fear of EVs & the technology has now entered the mainstream.

Shortage of supply is also adding value to used vehicles & this should result in some very attractive PCP deals.

This isn't necessarily a good thing or at least has additional unforseen impacts

The poor benefit from the rich buying cars and selling them cars at below cost, the rich taking the big depreciation hit

If EVs were held by their owners for the life of the car or just longer than typical then the poor would no longer have 'subsidised' transport or not as much. It's similar to developing countries like China or Turkey where second hand market prices for all cars are high because their rich aren't rich enough to afford to constantly buy new cars instead they buy and hold much longer than our wealthy so there is no trickle down or rather less.

If BEVs are to cost £35k rather than a £13.5k fiesta then car buyers will have to keep them longer to make the economics work

I could afford to buy a new fiesta every other year and sell it for half the price I bought it
If I bought a £35k EV I'd probably keep it ten years
The cost for me would more or less be the same about £30k hit on depreciation
But the secondary market doesn't get the nearly new 5 fiestas they get maybe one EV towards the end of its useful life

So yes if the market transitions to more expensive BEVs their value will hold up
Primarily because their owners will have to keep them longer to be able to afford them
To the richer folk on society this isn't that big a problem
Like I said I can buy 5 fiestas (£6k depreciation each = £30k depreciation) or 1 Tesla the cost to me is about the same £30k depreciation (bought for £40k sold for £10k at year 10)so I'm alright Jack. But the poor are screwed in the fiesta model they get to drive 5 nearly new fiestas. In the Tesla model they get to drive one Tesla near the end of its life

This is also another reason we need BEVs at fiesta prices so the poor can have access too

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

You seem a little confused.

The PV system provides energy, from free fuel. The oil rig (not free) is used to extract crude oil, not produce energy.

Once again - RE powerstations use free fuel, whilst FF powerstations have to buy fuel, fuel which itself has already consumed vast amounts of energy and money to get there.

And again, for further clarity, an oil rig is part of the non-free FF supply chain. Whereas the fuel supply chain for RE is .... well ...... free.

This isn't the point of this thread so stop going on but by your definition both are free

If I drill a hundred shale wells and cap most of them and build a gas fired CCGT on top

Guess what..... The gas is 'free'......the power station is 'free'....and I have 'free' electricity for thirty years. It just needs a tiny amount of maintenance and work just like a PV farm needs a tiny bit of maintenance and work. Both are 'free' by your logic only the 'collecting' infrastructure cost money

Likewise by this definition nuclear is also free
By this definition anything high capital cost low marginal cost is free
Music is free
Film is free
Software is free
Patents are free
Houses are free
Roads are free
Airports are free

Of course all nonsense

Mr 'solar is free it's the collection that costs money' is just saying solar has a high capital cost a low marginal generation cost. True but why not say that why say solar is free?

markin

Solarchaser wrote: »

Solar energy is completely free.... it's the catching it that costs money.

After the 6, 12, or 20 year payback it is free*, They are almost all going to work to the 25year @ 80%, I would expect most brands will keep going for at least another 25 years, but you probably do want to replace them if they hit 50% efficiency of rated output.


*Inverters hopefully last at least 15 years.


....................................................................


Brits are paying £1BILLION every month on car finance

– and the motors cost 47 per cent more than we can afford to buy
Almost five million of us have signed up to a finance package, with an average monthly payment of £226


"On average, the plans cost £266.12 per month across the country, with a total car value of £15,438.
In comparison, Brits only spend £10,511 on their motors outright, according to new research by auto repairs firm Kwik Fit.
Worryingly, that's almost 50 per cent higher, which could mean we're not living within our means.
The North-West region of Great Britain takes up the most deals with 867,000 drivers signing up, paying just under £227 on average each month.


Whichever route drivers take to finance their car, or if they pay for it outright, it’s vital that they focus on maintaining as much of its value as possible for when they come to sell it."


https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/6867734/uk-paying-1-billion-month-car-finance/

ABrass

GreatApe wrote: »

£13,575 two separate quotes just now within ten miles of me without searching muchbso may even be able to find better

Current models or old stock? The list price on new Fiestas is supposed to be approx. 15.5k after the range reduction and price rises last year.

Of course there may be sales on or it might be the RRP rather than the actual sales value. On the other hand the Fiesta most definitely doesn't start at 12k.