Will Brexit happen?

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Which is then confirmed by the MEPs. When our government selects a new leader it's only that parties members have to confirm it - EU is more democratic.


Why wouldn't the EU's UN representative be elected, say, the EU council (those same heads of state)?


You're making stuff up here.

Merely making the point (perhaps badly) that at the moment EU citizens may not be particularly bothered at the obvious democratic deficit when the top EU jobs are handed out. However that attitude may change when the nation states are sidelined and their interests are subsequently represented by EU officials. At the moment French citizens vote directly for a President and thus Macron attends G7 soir!es on their behalf. It may well be that when the United States of Europe comes into being that the EU recognises the need to involve the demos more directly, but they do seem to prefer backroom deals when it comes to democracy.
These things may not be important to the EU acolytes at this stage but if a huge continent is to become a nation, then the ways and practices of a mere glorified trading bloc need to change.
I speak only as an interested spectator of course, my country is hopefully about to reject the politics of undemocratic convenience and reestablish its Sovereign identity.

BikingBud

mayonnaise wrote: »

IMO, it shouldn't be an MP.
This needs a well respected, fair, balanced and impartial pair of hands. Maybe Alastair Campbell?

Bring on Diane:

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1163844389883408384

Herzlos

markj113 wrote: »

Based on what data, remainers held a "are you a xenophobic racist" poll?

Just some scientists:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-prejudice-scientists-link-foreigners-immigrants-racism-xenophobia-leave-eu-a8078586.html


Plus it's the only real justification that makes sense en masse. I just wish people could be honest about it instead of claiming it's about African Farmers, or something.

markj113

Herzlos wrote: »

Just some scientists:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-prejudice-scientists-link-foreigners-immigrants-racism-xenophobia-leave-eu-a8078586.html


Plus it's the only real justification that makes sense en masse. I just wish people could be honest about it instead of claiming it's about African Farmers, or something.

“Personally I think the Leave campaign gave a new, acceptable way to express xenophobia,” said Dr Golec de Zavala.


Seems a case of personal bias over an objective, data based study.


"The first study took place shortly after the EU referendum, and it consisted of an online questionnaire of 280 participants who had voted in it. The second study involved 226 people and took place after the Government announced support for a “hard” Brexit option in September 2016."


So a total of about 500 people out of the 17.4 million (0.003%) that voted leave and not every respondent would have demonstrated some of the "3 traits", I am sure you would agree that the result is statistically irrelevant.

Malthusian

Herzlos wrote: »

Plus it's the only real justification that makes sense en masse. I just wish people could be honest about it instead of claiming it's about African Farmers, or something.

If Leavers aren't being honest about their racism then your survey is unreliable.

How do you know they are being honest about their racism when they fill in the sociologist's survey, but lying the rest of the time?

But maximum points to the lead author for stating openly in the national press that she'd fitted the methodology to the conclusion she'd started with.

Note that the survey did not actually ask Leavers they were racist. It asked them whether they were a) right-wing, b) Darwinist and c) patriotic. It assumed that people who believe any or all of these things are also racist.

Two of these personality traits are commonly used as predictors of prejudice, and have previously been implicated in voting for radical right-wing parties.

These were right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation – the idea that one’s group needs to fight for superiority in the world.

The third is a particular focus of Dr Golec de Zavala’s research, a trait known as “collective narcissism” – a belief in the unparalleled greatness of one’s country.

If of course you believe that right-wingers and patriots are automatically racist then there is no problem. If you believe they aren't then this survey won't be tickling your confirmation bias. If you believe in the scientific method, Goldsmiths (99th in the Grauniad's university league table, recently overtaken by King's Lynn Poly) is probably not for you.

Malthusian

Herzlos wrote: »

True, but that's only one of many, many bits of research showing the link.

Oh God, we're now about to get Herzlos' second-choice bit of research, the one they thought less convincing than a paper from a university ranked below Kings Lynn Poly, whose lead author openly admitted fitting the methodology to the conclusion, and which proved that voting Leave = racist by assuming that right-wing + patriotic = racist. Brace yourselves.

Take this word cloud

...please! *badoom-tish*

Seems to all be about immigration.

Which, as we're agreed that Leave voters are dishonest about their xenophobia and racism, would suggest that immigration didn't matter to them very much.

Sailtheworld

Malthusian wrote: »

Note that the survey did not actually ask Leavers they were racist. It asked them whether they were a) right-wing, b) Darwinist and c) patriotic. It assumed that people who believe any or all of these things are also racist.

You do realise that people, even in anonymous surveys, try and give the 'correct' answer even if it's not truthful? A 12 year old wouldn't try and determine whether people are racist or not with the question 'are you racist?'.

markj113

Sailtheworld wrote: »

You do realise that people, even in anonymous surveys, try and give the 'correct' answer even if it's not truthful? A 12 year old wouldn't try and determine whether people are racist or not with the question 'are you racist?'.

I would say remainers are the most openly racist, sexist and ageist.


Constant posting about gammons, wanting the elderly to die to remove their leave vote and much worse.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Hit a nerve has it? Am I somehow inferior because you think I'm a pesky foreigner?

No, if anything I’m in awe of the sort of personal confidence it must require to be that necky.
I’m trying imagine a situation where I could move to somewhere say like Germany, rock up in Bavaria and then declare that it should breakaway from Germany proper.
Follow that up with a declaration that Germans are a bit racist and xenophobic and you’ve got a right win double as regards a lack of self awareness.
Good on ya!

Sailtheworld

markj113 wrote: »

I would say remainers are the most openly racist, sexist and ageist.

Thanks for your survey results. I don't expect they'll subject to the same rigour here as surveys suggesting the opposite.