Will Brexit happen?

Thrugelmir

Takedap wrote: »

The sad truth is that before the referendum, the vast majority of the public just got on with their lives & didn't care at all about Europe.

At a local level there was already disquiet. Been a huge impact since 2007 and increasing levels of immigration

foxtrotoscar_2

NHS Scotland bailed out by England...Scottish Daily Mail front page and centre today...oh look we're not so much better.

Herzlos

mayonnaise wrote: »

Maths doesn't lie, but brexiteer maths do.

e.g. Tim Martin who will slash beer prices once freed from crippling EU import duties on beer, which are currently.... 0%. :rotfl:

Maybe the cost savings will be from paying the staff less, reducing their working conditions, or evading more tax.

phillw

Herzlos wrote: »

Maybe the cost savings will be from paying the staff less, reducing their working conditions, or evading more tax.

Tim Martin is just banking on the extra business due to his customers celebrating their imagined victory over foreigners. He will also be able to finally be able to sleep at night, knowing that no foreigner can tell him what to do.

Those demons he has are pretty strong

SpiderLegs wrote: »

Of course. So what I don’t understand is why there such disproportionate anger towards leave voters for doing what ‘clever’ people should have expected them to do.

No, I'm not angry about people voting to leave the EU. I'm angry that they're all still bare faced lying. It would be easy to stop all of the division and actually be honest.

Unfortunately at that point there is no reason to leave the EU at all, so nobody is going to be honest yet.

Boris Johnson hasn't told the truth in decades. I'm not sure he remembers how anymore

prowla wrote: »

Q. Why should we remain in the EU?
A. Because if we don't there'll be WW III.

You know it was leavers that said that, no remainer ever did.

prowla wrote: »

A. Because leavers are racists.
Q. OK, but... Nevermind.

Can you explain why else they are so quick to believe all the lies told by the leave campaign? There has to be some prejudice that makes it easier to believe anti EU rhetoric. People don't want to admit it, but that prejudice is racist and xenophobic.

Enterprise_1701C

This is what Cameron said

Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash to make that assumption,” said Cameron. Touching upon Britain’s warring past, Cameron continued by saying: "what happens in our neighbourhood matters to Britain. That was true in 1914, 1940, 1989.... and it is true in 2016." “We should listen to the voices that say Europe had a violent history, we've managed to avoid that and so why put at risk the things that achieve that?" Cameron continued.

He said that whilst organisations like NATO were cornerstones of our defence system, they were not enough in helping Britain stay secure. Staying in the EU would help reinforce this national defence, argued Cameron.

The Prime Minister also referred to Britain’s role in “pivotal moments in European history: Blenheim, Trafalgar, Waterloo, our country’s heroism in the Great War and, most of all, our lone stand in 1940”, and recalled how Winston Churchill “argued passionately for Western Europe to come together, to promote free trade and build institutions which would endure so our continent would never again see such bloodshed”.

We are only a matter of weeks away from voting, on June 23, and Cameron has made his most dramatic persuasion f. If the country votes for Brexit, Britain can withdraw from the EU two years after telling the European Council that its wants to go. Here’s to hoping Cameron’s speech was mere dramatic rhetoric if Britain votes to leave...


That has clear enough implications for anyone to read between the lines.


Of course you were probably lapping up Antonio Tajani's speach last year, you know the one where he claimed that the eu had vanquished soviet communism and naziism.

Thrugelmir

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

That has clear enough implications for anyone to read between the lines.

Arguably the political nature of the project. Is unearthing the deep divisions that are harboured across Europe to this day. Not everyone is benefitting equally. Nor do member states act in the interests of all. When push comes to shove.

Tromking

The post war generation of arch-Euro federalists that dominate EU institutions cannot last forever. The argument that Europeans need a supranational entity and it’s goal of ‘ever closer Union’ , in order to stop us warring with each other is a 20th Century anachronism. That said, I do think the younger generation are rejecting or at least are less concerned about the notion of the nation state, not because they are haunted by 20th Century wars but because it’s a more modern outlook to have.
My only major concern with that mentality is that as it stands the democratic deficit inherent in the EU means that it wouldn’t last five minutes.

Herzlos

What democratic deficit? It's provably more democratic than the UK, as has been shown on here dozens of times and ignored.


The younger generation are less concerned with the nation state, and are much more open to the benefits of co-operation.

mayonnaise

Unelected PM
Unelected Government
Unelected HoL
Unelected Head of State.

Look over there! Democratic deficit in the EU!

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

What democratic deficit? It's provably more democratic than the UK, as has been shown on here dozens of times and ignored.

No particular fan of our particular way of doing things, but if and when the EU becomes the unified political and economic entity it says it wants to become then the current mechanism for ‘selecting’ it top people will have to involve the European demos a lot more directly than it does now.
For example when the democratically elected national leaders of Italy, Germany and France are replaced at the UN and at G7 get togethers by a latter day Donald Tusk or a Luxembourger Lush type figure, it will no longer be acceptable for that leader to be a political appointee surely?
Saying that, perhaps in your ‘new Europe’ of the future that level of democracy will be the norm.