Will Brexit happen?

Takedap

BikingBud wrote: »

If the electorate cannot engage in what is classed as the most significant political event in our lifetime then it is what it is but it doesn't make it a false or inadmissible result.

I would imagine that a large number of them didn't feel sufficiently qualified to try to reduce one of the most complex political, economic & legal problems into a simple binary answer.


Maybe they thought that decisions on something that had the potential to wreck the future of the country should be left to the experts.


https://onsizzle.com/i/answers-simple-complex-but-wrong-you-refuse-to-do-the-14049287

SpiderLegs

Takedap wrote: »

I would imagine that a large number of them didn't feel sufficiently qualified to try to reduce one of the most complex political, economic & legal problems into a simple binary answer.


Maybe they thought that decisions on something that had the potential to wreck the future of the country should be left to the experts.


https://onsizzle.com/i/answers-simple-complex-but-wrong-you-refuse-to-do-the-14049287

The experts decided that they did not want responsibility to make such a decision, so passed it onto the electorate.

Given that the scenario illustrated in your link is not exactly rocket science, does this mean that those experts are not quite as clever as some like to think?

Takedap

SpiderLegs wrote: »

The experts decided that they did not want responsibility to make such a decision, so passed it onto the electorate.

Given that the scenario illustrated in your link is not exactly rocket science, does this mean that those experts are not quite as clever as some like to think?

You're possibly right. But the whole thing was about Cameron trying to shut up a minority in his party that had been moaning for years & to bury UKIP.


The sad truth is that before the referendum, the vast majority of the public just got on with their lives & didn't care at all about Europe. It's just a bunch of right wing fanatics who persuaded them that it was somehow ruining their lives & they would be much better off without it.


And now all we are hearing is about damage limitation & how being worse off is just a "bump in the road". And if you have a large saving pot, a secure income & problems paying your bills, maybe it will be. But a lot of Leave voters are living hand to mouth & these will be the hardest hit.


The trouble is, we now really do have to go through with it or we will forever be hearing about the glorious future that they voted for & have been robbed of.


Maybe sometimes you have to let the kiddies touch the fire or they'll never believe that it burns.

SpiderLegs

Takedap wrote: »

You're possibly right. But the whole thing was about Cameron trying to shut up a minority in his party that had been moaning for years & to bury UKIP.

Of course. So what I don’t understand is why there such disproportionate anger towards leave voters for doing what ‘clever’ people should have expected them to do.

The sad truth is that before the referendum, the vast majority of the public just got on with their lives & didn't care at all about Europe. It's just a bunch of right wing fanatics who persuaded them that it was somehow ruining their lives & they would be much better off without it.

Isn’t it always the case that major societal change is initially driven by a minority?
I wonder if ‘the vast majority of the public’ originally cared about giving women the vote, or attitudes to homosexuality, or banning smoking in public, or climate change and environmental issues?

And I imagine that opponents of those movements would be just as derogatory and negative about them while slowly the numbers who accept those changes creep up and we end up at a point where the majority have learned to live with it and then move on to not a caring about a different subject that some other minority is up in arms about.

Please don’t come back with something on the lines of ‘those examples are all good but Brexit is bad’. That will just prove the point.

And now all we are hearing is about damage limitation & how being worse off is just a "bump in the road". And if you have a large saving pot, a secure income & problems paying your bills, maybe it will be. But a lot of Leave voters are living hand to mouth & these will be the hardest hit.

The trouble is, we now really do have to go through with it or we will forever be hearing about the glorious future that they voted for & have been robbed of.

Maybe sometimes you have to let the kiddies touch the fire or they'll never believe that it burns.

Personally I am very bored of this ongoing emotional debate that just replays the same arguments from three years ago. It was ridiculously over the top then and it’s just as bad now. If you’re looking for a majority opinion on this whole mess then my guess is it’s one that just wants the whole thing sorting one way or another.

prowla

phillw wrote: »

No, you can't. Those who didn't vote expressed their view, it wasn't one that supported leaving the EU. Those who couldn't vote are people like EU citizens, who are excluded from voting because it was feared they would vote to remain.

If you want them to express it then hold another referendum, otherwise what we have is a minority of the population destroying the country for their own prejudice. It's just a fractionally larger minority than the one that wants to remain.

Those who didn't vote did not express a preference and in doing so chose to accept the outcome expressed by those who did vote.

Takedap

SpiderLegs wrote: »

Personally I am very bored of this ongoing emotional debate that just replays the same arguments from three years ago. It was ridiculously over the top then and it’s just as bad now. If you’re looking for a majority opinion on this whole mess then my guess is it’s one that just wants the whole thing sorting one way or another.

I've heard this quite a lot. Usually from people who don't understand that what we're talking about is only the WA agreement. It is to allow us to either move into a transition period or leave on WTO terms. Either way, trade talks start after that..


If anyone thinks that leaving the EU on Nov 1 is going to be the end of it, then they are going to be sadly disappointed.


And when it comes to being an "emotional debate", I think you need to be looking at your Leave colleagues with all the talk of Enemies, Traitors, Sovereignty & Taking back control. These are the ones who are saying that we must leave "at any cost". Emotional much?

SpiderLegs

Takedap wrote: »

I've heard this quite a lot. Usually from people who don't understand that what we're talking about is only the WA agreement. It is to allow us to either move into a transition period or leave on WTO terms. Either way, trade talks start after that..

No, I think most people are fed up of the inability of MPs to get on with it.

If anyone thinks that leaving the EU on Nov 1 is going to be the end of it, then they are going to be sadly disappointed.

Yes they are. So what?

And when it comes to being an "emotional debate", I think you need to be looking at your Leave colleagues with all the talk of Enemies, Traitors, Sovereignty & Taking back control. These are the ones who are saying that we must leave "at any cost". Emotional much?

Oh dear. FYI I don’t have ‘leave colleagues’ I don’t live in your fantasy divisive world where people just sit on one side and sneer at the people on the other. If you want to engage in a pathetic slanging match you’ll have to pick another target.

Takedap

SpiderLegs wrote: »

No, I think most people are fed up of the inability of MPs to get on with it.

Yes they are. So what?

Oh dear. FYI I don’t have ‘leave colleagues’ I don’t live in your fantasy divisive world where people just sit on one side and sneer at the people on the other. If you want to engage in a pathetic slanging match you’ll have to pick another target.

You seem to have become upset over the use of the word "colleague".

Thanks for proving my point about where the "emotional debate" stems from.

prowla

Takedap wrote: »

You're possibly right. But the whole thing was about Cameron trying to shut up a minority in his party that had been moaning for years & to bury UKIP.

The sad truth is that before the referendum, the vast majority of the public just got on with their lives & didn't care at all about Europe. It's just a bunch of right wing fanatics who persuaded them that it was somehow ruining their lives & they would be much better off without it.

And now all we are hearing is about damage limitation & how being worse off is just a "bump in the road". And if you have a large saving pot, a secure income & problems paying your bills, maybe it will be. But a lot of Leave voters are living hand to mouth & these will be the hardest hit.

The trouble is, we now really do have to go through with it or we will forever be hearing about the glorious future that they voted for & have been robbed of.

Maybe sometimes you have to let the kiddies touch the fire or they'll never believe that it burns.

A lot of people were not happy about the EU before the Referendum, hence the momentum which built up for it.


To me the EU is the political equivalent of a multinational, where people and communities are irrelevant compared to the grand plan.


When Cameron went to the EU in January of that year and came back with nothing more than a condescending pat on the head, that was when things got serious.



Before the Referendum I put myself at 51:49% leave; it was the most rubbish political campaign ever run, but what swung it for me was the personalities on the Remain side, the threats from Obama, and nobody being able to say formulate a positive argument to stay in the EU.


Q. Why should we remain in the EU?
A. Because if we don't there'll be WW III.
Q. OK, but why should we stay in the EU?
A. Because the Leave campaigners are stupid.
Q. OK, but why should we remain in the EU?
A. Because leavers are racists.
Q. OK, but... Nevermind.

Arklight

prowla wrote: »

A lot of people were not happy about the EU before the Referendum, hence the momentum which built up for it.


To me the EU is the political equivalent of a multinational, where people and communities are irrelevant compared to the grand plan.


When Cameron went to the EU in January of that year and came back with nothing more than a condescending pat on the head, that was when things got serious.



Before the Referendum I put myself at 51:49% leave; it was the most rubbish political campaign ever run, but what swung it for me was the personalities on the Remain side, the threats from Obama, and nobody being able to say formulate a positive argument to stay in the EU.


Q. Why should we remain in the EU?
A. Because if we don't there'll be WW III.
Q. OK, but why should we stay in the EU?
A. Because the Leave campaigners are stupid.
Q. OK, but why should we remain in the EU?
A. Because leavers are racists.
Q. OK, but... Nevermind.

Cameron went to the EU with a grandstanding Daily Mail agenda that was only ever about domestic politics. Like every Tory Prime Minister before and after him, his dog and pony show was designed to win votes from Tory eurosceptics in the electorate and his own party. People angry that not enough was being done to put the Europe in its place, or who needed reminding that the source of their problems mostly stemmed from foreigners.

Actual diplomatic negotiations aren't conducted during some odd pre-advertised political tour where you tell your own right wing newspapers what you expect to get before you have even met any of the other leaders.

Cameron was told, quite rightly, that FOM was not up for negotiation alongside the unprecedented number of opt outs and special deals the UK already enjoyed. He may also have been reminded that the UK was under no onus to offer immigration or benefits to all people in the EU, and wasn't using the powers it had.

3 years on, the Tories still aren't using these powers, because they are assuming that if they just don't talk about them Brexit supporters will be too ignorant to realise that they don't actually need Brexit to curb EU immigration (try emigrating to the Netherlands if you can't speak Dutch and don't have a job) and that this can just be done under current terms. A strategy that seems to be working brilliantly.