Help!!! Appealing against penalty charge for stopping at yellow box junction

mkoprulu

:mad: I'm sick of being robbed by these cowboys, so i'm intending to appeal against a PCN i received today.

I will need any support you can give with regards to the situation, so if you have knowledge/experience in the situation, please comment.

Here's the photo for the offence they have sent:

CLICK


Here's the map to the location of the boxed junction:

CLICK

Here's the aerial picture of how it looks:

CLICK


Ok, here's the information i've gathered so far: (Please don't hesitate to comment if i'm right or wrong in any of these points)

• First off, this image doesn’t show the exit was blocked when I entered the junction. There’s no evidence that the traffic was flowing as I entered. What’s more the offence is commited when a car enters the boxed junction, but if circumstances change after entering the junction and let's say if the traffic stops, then it's not my fault. Hence, there must be video evidence to prove that the exit was blocked prior to me going into the junction. My car is the 4x4 honda crv on the right of the picture.

• Second thing is, a[FONT=&quot] yellow box at a T junction should cover only half of the junction (the half next to the side road). [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This box covers the full width of the junction, which is clearly a t-junction, therefore it doesn’t comply with the requirements.[/FONT]

Also i'd appreciate if anyone has a template letter for the appeals process.

Many thanks to all!

Badger_Lady

Blimey, they've found a way to make money there - 4 cars all liable for prosecution at one moment!?

Sorry, can't help but just curious - is this a fixed penalty (like speeding), or more complicated? Very worrying if they can do this based on such dodgy evidence. I can't tell from these pictures whether you were still moving at the time, or at the very least you moved within seconds???

lee8040

i thought though that if you was in a yellow box no matter what then you were penalised. which if true you and the others clearly are.

i maybe wrong, hopefully for your appeal i am wrong

Badger_Lady

lee8040 wrote: »

i thought though that if you was in a yellow box no matter what then you were penalised. which if true you and the others clearly are.

Well, this clearly isn't true - you're allowed to drive through it!

mkoprulu

Well, to be fair i haven't made a comprehensive study about the law governing this, but from what i've seen so far there should be evidence to show that the exit was blocked before i entered.

You can see a document from a similar court case which is based on the same facts, although the situation was turning right rather than going straight in that case. But if you read the last paragraph, you can see that the judge accepted the appeal purely on the basis that there was no video or photo evidence showing that the car entered the box junction "knowing" that he would be stranded there.

You can see the document HERE

To Quote it:

" The terms of the prohibition refer to causing the vehicle to enter the box. The evidence produced by Transport for London in support of its case does not, however, show the entry of the vehicle into the box; it commences later, when the vehicle is already stopped in the box. It seems to me that in order properly to consider whether the contravention has occurred the video recording needs to show the entry of the vehicle into the box since that is the start of the events that will or will not lead to there being a contravention. In the absence of this evidence, bearing in mind that the burden is on Transport for London to prove the contravention, I cannot find that it has discharged this burden of proof. I accordingly allow this appeal.

Martin Wood
Adjudicator appointed under Section 73(3) of the Road Traffic Act 1991
acting in exercise of powers conferred by Paragraph 10 of Schedule 1 to
the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
"

mkoprulu

Badger_Lady wrote: »

Blimey, they've found a way to make money there - 4 cars all liable for prosecution at one moment!?

Sorry, can't help but just curious - is this a fixed penalty (like speeding), or more complicated? Very worrying if they can do this based on such dodgy evidence. I can't tell from these pictures whether you were still moving at the time, or at the very least you moved within seconds???

It's a fixed penalty of £120 with 50% reduction if paid within 14 days. (Going down to £60)

No points to licence though...

lister

I thought the law was very much simpler than the OP seems to be making it:

from the highway code website:

"174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping."

If you entered the box when your exit wasn't clear you were in the wrong as far as I can tell from this (as long as you weren't turning right etc. etc.), which is also in keeping with my understanding before I looked this up.

Frankly, if you entered a box without your exit being clear, you are bang to rights. If somehow the clear exit became blocked after you entered the box (which I struggle to see happening, but never say never) then you might have a case, although proving it would be next to impossible.

Badger_Lady

Hmm... that's very interesting, you may well be able to use that (assuming they don't have video evidence of the entire event).

It certainly seems a bit shaky - you've made me nervous just by the fact that it's got to this stage!

So what are they threatening you with, anyway? Have they stated a penalty?

abarthman

Lister, I share(d) your understanding, but the adjudication posted by mkoprulu seems to suggest that it's not as straight forward as this.

The Highway Code isn't the law.

lister

mkoprulu wrote: »

" The terms of the prohibition refer to causing the vehicle to enter the box. The evidence produced by Transport for London in support of its case does not, however, show the entry of the vehicle into the box; it commences later, when the vehicle is already stopped in the box. It seems to me that in order properly to consider whether the contravention has occurred the video recording needs to show the entry of the vehicle into the box since that is the start of the events that will or will not lead to there being a contravention. In the absence of this evidence, bearing in mind that the burden is on Transport for London to prove the contravention, I cannot find that it has discharged this burden of proof. I accordingly allow this appeal."

I believe you are right in certain respects. It is difficult to prove from stills the exact sequence of events, and therefore some unusual cases might prove problematic.

BUT

It isn't about entering a box not knowing that the exit will become blocked. You shouldn't enter unless you can clear to the other side. There is a subtle difference.

In the first case, you follow traffic into the box before the car in front has left it and left a large enough gap for you to get into on the far side. This is bad driving, because you know before you enter that there is a risk of you getting stuck in the box.

In the second case there is a clear space on the far side so you enter the box. Something (and I struggle to think of a good example) happens to fill that clear space before you reach it, so you are stranded. In this case you shouldn't be prosecuted in my view.

If the first case applies to you, pay the fine and learn your lesson. If not, then appeal.

tomstickland

lister wrote: »

I thought the law was very much simpler than the OP seems to be making it:

from the highway code website:

"174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping."

If you entered the box when your exit wasn't clear you were in the wrong as far as I can tell from this (as long as you weren't turning right etc. etc.), which is also in keeping with my understanding before I looked this up.

Frankly, if you entered a box without your exit being clear, you are bang to rights. If somehow the clear exit became blocked after you entered the box (which I struggle to see happening, but never say never) then you might have a case, although proving it would be next to impossible.

How about, in a practical situation, the traffic on the other side is moving, so you enter based on the assumption that it will move, but then the traffic stops.

Looking at the photo it's not as if you're completely on the hatched area.

This sort of application of the law leads to resentment IMO.