Help!!! Appealing against penalty charge for stopping at yellow box junction

tomstickland

ailuro2 wrote: »

Or you could just admit you stopped in a box junction, pay the fine at half price, and make a note to never ever give them any money ever again!

If we all did this, the revenue from fines would go down,wouldn't that be nice for us?

Of course, the roads might flow a bit better- where I drive it's the people jumping lanes, red lights etc. and trying to get there just a little faster that end up blocking other people's way, so ending up slowing traffic for everyone.:rolleyes:

At what point has the OP denied blocking the junction?

I agree that in some circumstances people behave in really stupid manner. London is the worst for pointless behaviour - I've had people fight to gain 2 inches but then also block loads of other traffic.

However, in this situation it's not so clear. They are not blocking anyone else.
If the OP had been sat right in the middle of the hatched area then fair enough. However, they are only partially on the hatched area and in busy traffic with queues behind this can happen. Practically speaking they are not blocking any other traffic.

The main problem is a that a camera can only apply one rule, regardless of the situation.

peter you can see from the picture his exit wasn't clear as he had to stop with part of the car in the box,

Pedanticly you can't. You can see that the exit isn't clear when he's stopped. Now, most people would assume that that means it wasn't clear when he started. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe the traffic was moving along at a reasonable pace and then slowed down just as he was about to clear it.

The point really being that using a camera to detect this offence has benefited noone, apart from adding a bit more to the resentment levels of those who bother to register their vehicles.

Happychappy

I must be missing something, as the offence of not entering until the exit from it is clear ? seems pretty clear? :rolleyes:

Is it really not as simple as not entering the box junction until you can see there is space on the other side of the box junction in order to drive straight through it and stop on the other side if traffic ahead stops?

The photo shows this clearly didnt happen as the car or both cars are stranded half in the box, so surely there was not the space already in exitence on the other side to drive into before the OP set off? if there was, this wouldnt have happened, so why do you need a photo of what happened before the op set off, how is that relevant, that is unless as the op set off all the traffic ahead reversed backwards leaving him stranded :eek:

Maybe I am not technical enough to understand. Also the view that the op wasnt fully stranded only half stranded doesnt hold water unless we have a box junction but only the little teeny weeny bit in the middle type junction, I thought the yellow paint defined it.

peterbaker

Happychappy wrote: »

... as the op set off all the traffic ahead reversed backwards leaving him stranded ...

that's as extreme as my suggestion that all the vehicles in the snapshot could gave been doing 60 mph

The point is that the only thing defying all logic in all this arises from 'serious' (:rolleyes:) interpretations of a 'still' to predict some other appalling moving event entirely. Newton and Einstein would be turning in their graves (if they could be the slightest bit bothered) at the spectacle of uneducated numpties that dream up these systems, and who play to an equally uneducated British public inviting them to say "What happened next" or "What happened before" ... and all based solely on a good citizen daring to move their vehicle within the vicinity of some official yellow paint, and having the bad luck that someone with too much power and no sense has been insufficiently opposed to 'cleverly' place a handy quarter million pound camera to catch it :rolleyes: .

MORPH3US

I'm with you HappyChappy and it really p*ss*s me off when people either don't know the rules of the road or are just too ignorant to follow them by blocking these junctions.... (not saying the OP is either of these, it could just be an innocent mistake, but if thats the case, it doesn't mean that they should get away with it still).

People blocking these junctions make my journey home from work so much worse than it has to be, it can also cause accidents, increase loss of life (where the hatchings are outside fire and ambulance stations) etc.....

M

mkoprulu

Happychappy, i believe you are right about half/full stranded situation, just like you need to be completely inside the parking lines at the side of pavements, you need to be completely outside of box junctions to be within the law.

However, i'm going to have to side with tomstickland about the exit being clear or not.

Think about a situation where cars are flowing at a slow pace 2-3mph in a congested street. Obviously everyone follows the car in front quite closely as long as they are out of the junction. As you approach the junction, what you do as the driver is you look ahead and try to see as much as you can through the traffic whether the flow is continuing or not. If you see stopping cars ahead, then you assume the car in front of you might stop right at the exit, therefore you don't keep on going. But if you don't see people stopping ahead, you would continue going. If after you enter the box junction the traffic stops going, then you would be stuck in this situation.

All i'm saying in my claim that the pictures provided don't indicate either situation. All it shows is a car stopped for 10 seconds at the exit of the junction with its rear tyres inside the junction.

mkoprulu

MORPH3US wrote: »

I'm with you HappyChappy and it really p*ss*s me off when people either don't know the rules of the road or are just too ignorant to follow them by blocking these junctions.... (not saying the OP is either of these, it could just be an innocent mistake, but if thats the case, it doesn't mean that they should get away with it still).

People blocking these junctions make my journey home from work so much worse than it has to be, it can also cause accidents, increase loss of life (where the hatchings are outside fire and ambulance stations) etc.....

M

I'm with you there Morph3us. I would accept blame if there's sufficient proof because innocent or not, an offence is an offence. But as i said before, because i trust my driving behaviour, i doubt it was my fault. Therefore i will demand a proof.

anewman

Definitely sounds worth fighting this mkoprulu, but don't sue me if you lose hehe. Let us know the outcome either way, I hope it goes in your favour. At least it looks like there's no chance of points or losing your license.

Happychappy

I see your logic but it just doesnt apply, the simple rule is you didnt see the exit was clear before you entered, you just assumed from the existing traffic conditions and traffic flow that it would clear in time and didnt expect it to stop or had no reason to expect it to stop ? But clearly it did : (

But that is still not the same as dont enter unless you can see your exit from it is clear. I have been a traffic cop for 21 years and the grid lock at major junctions is really difficult to deal with when the junction exit is blocked, the box junction when left clear does give a fighting chance of getting traffic moving if it is left clear.

I just don't see your reasons for feeling aggrieved as it would appear to be clear from the photo that you couldnt get through the junction and clear it as your exit wasnt clear when you entered it, otherwise, if it was clear before entering, you wouldnt be stuck behind another vehicle with insufficient space ?

mkoprulu

Happychappy, as you are indicating, if the exit wasn't clear when i entered it, then all the cars in front of me should have been stationary already, because if you imagine a rewind of the film in your head and if the traffic "was" moving before i entered the junction (which is what i think did happen) then the car in front of me and all other cars would have been moving and not at their position as shown in the picture. So i wouldn't conclude that either was the case unless there's further photographic or video evidence.

MORPH3US

I don't see your point mkoprulu....

ok so the cars in front of you were moving, but you should not have followed them until you were certain that you could safely make it to the other side of the hatched box.

However you did follow them without making certain and given that there were no extreme circumstances, you did unlawfully block the junction.

All of this "the cars in front of me were moving" is imho irrelevent, because they all managed to get to the other side of the box...