If there is a second referendum ...

Filo25

movilogo wrote: »

People who are fearful of leaving EU just because they might earn few pennies less, what they would have done if born during World War I or II?

Would they have surrendered to Germany?

After all obeying master is safer than taking ownership of one's own destiny.

Oh good another EU post harking back to previous Wars, they always add so much to the debate.

Have I missed the bit where we declared war with the EU, or is it something just in the heads of our more imaginative Brexiteers?

Filo25

kabayiri wrote: »

Plenty of studies showing probable job losses due to the advent of new technology too.

So whats your point?

It's how we adapt to change, which will determine how successful we are. I happen to think that the EU lack the real long term vision of their major global competitors.

So just to be clear you think the EU lacks the long term vision to succed, but you think the current UK government and opposition have that vision, we have a transport secretary who couldn't even organise a traffic jam.

On the Technology front, at least I can see how that drives productivity growth and hopefully as old employment opportunities are lost, new ones not currently envisaged are gained.

I don't know many serious experts (a discredited breed with Michael Gove I know), who think Brexit is likely to have a positive economic impact in the short-medium term, just the opposite.

kabayiri

Filo25 wrote: »

So just to be clear you think the EU lacks the long term vision to succed, but you think the current UK government and opposition have that vision, we have a transport secretary who couldn't even organise a traffic jam.
...

Actually, at the time of the referendum, I and many others had no hard evidence as to the ability of the UK government to deliver on an option *they* actually offered on a ballot paper.

It's an article of faith thing. It's the same with all political elections.

If we chose Remain we might never have found out how inept the current crop are; I think the EU does mask their incompetence.

Other growing global powers definitely have a vision. We (and our politicians) will be forced to respond.

andrewf75

kabayiri wrote: »

If we chose Remain we might never have found out how inept the current crop are; I think the EU does mask their incompetence.

Other growing global powers definitely have a vision. We (and our politicians) will be forced to respond.

Interesting point, but how much of their ineptness is because they are trying to do the impossible?

The job of politicians is to serve the people and to serve the best interests of the country and the two are incompatible with brexit. Other countries have more vision because they don’t let the man on the street have a say on complex political decisions! The country which seems to have the most vision (China) doesn’t even let them elect a government. They must be watching the situation with disbelief.

scaredofdebt

kabayiri wrote: »

Plenty of studies showing probable job losses due to the advent of new technology too.

So whats your point?

It's how we adapt to change, which will determine how successful we are. I happen to think that the EU lack the real long term vision of their major global competitors.

My point is that losing your job isn't the same as being a few pennies worse off, potentially a lot worse than that.

Also I didn't get to vote on new technology - while that may lead to job losses it also has upsides.

You think our government has "real long term vision"?

:rotfl:

movilogo

There have been plenty of studies showing tens of thousands (and more) possible job losses post-Brexit, how does that equate to "earning a few pennies less" if you are one of those made redundant?

I did lose my job in 2008-9 recession. We were inside EU then. Economy goes up and down. There is no guarantee we shall be better off inside EU.

qwert_yuiop

movilogo wrote: »

People who are fearful of leaving EU just because they might earn few pennies less, what they would have done if born during World War I or II?

Would they have surrendered to Germany?

After all obeying master is safer than taking ownership of one's own destiny.

I’d have kept out of the First World War and let the French and Germans knock lumps out of each other in a replay of 1870, a dance we sat out. If my grand uncles had avoided the war, there’d be a line of my family on to the fourth generation now who never got a chance to live. Probably.

movilogo

It is a fallacy to claim people are economically better off under the EU.

Here are few examples how:

• More people causes house price to push up. So you end up paying more for houses => less deposable income.
  
• Employers can keep wages low => less money on your pocket. On contrary, many low skilled/low paid workers (with a big number coming from EU) can claim income top up funded by tax payers => your tax is helping to create more profit for big businesses.
  
• EU students can claim tuition loan and if they leave UK it can't be recovered => EU students making it harder for your kids to study in Uni.
  
• Extra people are causing overload on public services like NHS, schools, roads etc.

It is not the overall GDP which matters but per captita GDP which matters more.

During any change some people are better off, some worse off and some remain more or less same. If being inside EU is so good, why financial crash happened before? Why Greece is permanently in trouble?

When UK didn't join Euro, some people predicted end of world for UK. See who is laughing now.

Herzlos

Most of that is also a fallacy, though.
More people, especially if the increase is in people who are fit and healthy, doesn't actually drain the NHS. Those more people pay more tax, thus provide more funding.
More trade due to lower trade barriers means more jobs.

Lower barriers also make it easier for smaller businesses to run, which tend to be better for the employees.


More people with the same number of housing is going to push the cost us. Ditto more people with static infrastructure. But is that the fault of the new people or of the governments inability to invest properly in infrastructure?

movilogo wrote: »

People who are fearful of leaving EU just because they might earn few pennies less, what they would have done if born during World War I or II?

Would they have surrendered to Germany?

After all obeying master is safer than taking ownership of one's own destiny.

We nearly did surrender to Germany. It's such a bizarre comparison though; we're not at War with the EU, and we're not being denied access to our own destiny.


How many voters were old enough now* to have been involved in either war? There does seem to be a national psyche rooted in the post-war baby boom period where kids grew up watching war movies.


I'm not sure what I'd do with the wars, particularly without the benefit of hindsight. I'd likely have agreed with both of them - there's a lot of trouble on our doorstep and we need to keep our allies and selves safe. Both wars would have affected us badly, and neither was of our own making.




*If you were born in 1930, you'd have been 9 when the war started, 15 when it ended and have some memory of it. It'd also make you 86 when the referendum happened. Average UK left expectancy is ~80.5 years.

StevieJ

movilogo wrote: »

When UK didn't join Euro, some people predicted end of world for UK. See who is laughing now.

Who was that? Seems like it was current 'remainers' who kept us out of the Euro, Gordon Brown?