If there is a second referendum ...

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

Indeed. It's a hell of a gamble though.





Well, we'd still owe them it. How they'd get us to pay up if we dig our heels in is a different matter. I suspect we'll need to hand it over in full before negotiating a future arrangement, if they have concerns about our reliability.





Agreed. Though any dirty play we do will likely hurt us in good will. If the EU start retaliating to these games then we're stuffed.


Prioritizing British haulage is going to be an interesting one, but probably good for us and Eire in the long run as it'll give them the push needed to just bypass us. We'll lose a lot of congestion (and revenue associated with the haulage), and they'll get to avoid needed to leave and re-enter the EU.

British lorries have to pay to use roads in most other EU countries already. Asking Irish vehicles to pay to use our roads is simply levelling up the playing field.

And some of us have very grave and justified concerns about the reliability of the duplicitous EU.

Takedap

IF we end up leaving with no deal & IF the result is even half as bad as most studies suggest (given that most predict that even the best scenario leaves the country in a poorer state), how will the Leavers blame the Remainers for what has happened? Lack of faith perhaps? Because they certainly won't admit that they were wrong.

Herzlos

Remainers will be blamed for holding Leavers back and talking us down. For not being patriotic enough. For being traitors and sabotaging us. For not trying hard enough to make it work. Eventually we'll get blamed for letting Leavers leave (I've seen this argument already, where someone was blaming Remainer MP's for approving the bill instead of killing it off).
The EU will be blamed for giving us a bad deal, for being intransigent, for punishing us.


Remainers will just say "We told you so" and get on with trying to make the most of it until we rejoin.

cogito wrote: »

British lorries have to pay to use roads in most other EU countries already. Asking Irish vehicles to pay to use our roads is simply levelling up the playing field.

Yup that's fair. We can certainly make that an option.

And some of us have very grave and justified concerns about the reliability of the duplicitous EU.

More so that duplicitous Westminster?

Takedap

Herzlos wrote: »

Remainers will be blamed for holding Leavers back and talking us down. For not being patriotic enough. For being traitors and sabotaging us. For not trying hard enough to make it work. Eventually we'll get blamed for letting Leavers leave (I've seen this argument already, where someone was blaming Remainer MP's for approving the bill instead of killing it off).
The EU will be blamed for giving us a bad deal, for being intransigent, for punishing us.


Remainers will just say "We told you so" and get on with trying to make the most of it until we rejoin.

I think that the worst part of all this is that before the referendum, with the exception of a few radicals, no-one really cared. Now we're left on the brink of civil war. It's made the division caused by the miners strike look like a jolly tea party.

BLB53

Well, we'd still owe them it. How they'd get us to pay up if we dig our heels in is a different matter.

Sorry, but I'm sure we do not owe them. This money is part of the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement which is subject to being passed in Parliament. If, which seems likely, MPs reject the deal then it must follow we do not owe this money...as the EU often tell us, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

Herzlos

BLB53 wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm sure we do not owe them. This money is part of the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement which is subject to being passed in Parliament. If, which seems likely, MPs reject the deal then it must follow we do not owe this money...as the EU often tell us, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

The money has been covered as part of the withdrawal agreement, because it kind of fits there. But it's a settlement for our liabilities for projects in the EU, it's not an agreed withdrawal fee. The money the EU needs to cover our liabilities is the same whether we leave on good terms or not.


The only issue is that if we choose to go full North Korea, then there's nothing the EU can do to make us pay. It would really hurt our international standing and credit rating, and make any country forming a trade deal with us add clauses to prevent us doing the same to them.


It's probably cheaper and less hassle in the long run to just pay what we owe, but nothing else about this is about logic.




I thought "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" is something Davis said after embarrassing himself in the early negotiations, and infuriated the EU, rather than something attributable to the EU?

qwert_yuiop

lisyloo wrote: »

Boris Johnson claims that no deal is closer to the type of brexit that people want.
Genuine question - How do we KNOW what type of brexit people want? (beyond a few small polls).

I thought the small polls were all back in polland now we’re brexiting. The big ones, too.

bugslet

Herzlos wrote: »

Prioritizing British haulage is going to be an interesting one, but probably good for us and Eire in the long run as it'll give them the push needed to just bypass us. We'll lose a lot of congestion (and revenue associated with the haulage), and they'll get to avoid needed to leave and re-enter the EU.

I've not followed this all the way back, but we lose over 300 million a year in lost fuel revenue as foreign hauliers don't usually pay for British fuel. For the last three years there has been an attempt to redress that by charging foreign hauliers £11.00 a day, which is the maximum that anyone can charge under EU rules, and that followed some frankly jiggery-pokery as it has to be a charge that applies to UK hauliers. Such was the convoluted approach that the charge applies to around 2% of UK hauliers.

In theory, we could charge foreign vehicles for the use of British roads by increasing the daily levy or limiting the amount of fuel that the trucks bring in. Wether the latter would be sensible to do so is another matter on a cost/time basis.

So there exists the possibility of earning more from foreign trucks, which may take some of them off the road and increase the UK fleet.

smipsy

listening to what Boris Johnson says, after everything he spouted, is madness regardless on which side one is. that guy would lie even if you only asked him what day is today

Herzlos

bugslet wrote: »

I've not followed this all the way back, but we lose over 300 million a year in lost fuel revenue as foreign hauliers don't usually pay for British fuel. For the last three years there has been an attempt to redress that by charging foreign hauliers £11.00 a day, which is the maximum that anyone can charge under EU rules, and that followed some frankly jiggery-pokery as it has to be a charge that applies to UK hauliers. Such was the convoluted approach that the charge applies to around 2% of UK hauliers.

In theory, we could charge foreign vehicles for the use of British roads by increasing the daily levy or limiting the amount of fuel that the trucks bring in. Wether the latter would be sensible to do so is another matter on a cost/time basis.

So there exists the possibility of earning more from foreign trucks, which may take some of them off the road and increase the UK fleet.

Do we really lose money from foreign trucks that don't buy any fuel on the way through? I mean it's potential money but I'm not sure it's lost. There's also the tax/insurance will all be foreign.


But presumably (and I could be wrong as I'm not a trucker), few of the truckers drive across the country without interacting with the economy - bringing their own food/water, sleeping in laybys? Most of the truck friendly services I visit seem to be fairly busy most of the time and most have fees for staying > 2 hours. I'm assuming they are still a net drain though, considering the congestion and road damage.


I'm not against a daily levy though, it's only fair for them to pay for their road usage. Presumably UK hauliers are equally happy to pay a levy for every day they spend in the EU? I doubt they can necessarily take advantage of not needing to buy fuel whilst over there.