If there is a second referendum ...

Herzlos

BLB53 wrote: »

For a lot of people, this is not so much about economics but more about taking back control from the EU.

Some remainers say we did not vote to be poorer. Well I do not know whether we will be economically better off if/when we leave. What is important is having the freedom to do our own thing without the likes of Mr Junker saying we can't do this or that or we have to do it this way. I think for many who voted to leave, this is at the heart of the discontent.

I'm not sure it's valid to claim we don't know if we'll be better off or not when we leave; even the pro-Leavers have said we'll be worse off and no-one seems to be claiming we'll be better. At this stage it's more a case of figuring out how much worse off we'll be, and if that additional freedom is worth it.


I'm not sure I get the taking back control argument - the EU stops and will stop us doing very little (beyond tax evasion), and as a 3rd country on it's doorstep dependent on EU trade we're going to be taking their rules in the future anyway, except as a 3rd country we get no say in them.

MobileSaver

BLB53 wrote: »

this is not so much about economics but more about taking back control from the EU. ... What is important is having the freedom to do our own thing

What "to do our own thing" do you want to do and why?

We live in a joined-up world and we are all the better for it whether you like to admit it or not. No-one, not even the so-called leader of the free world (as the effing moron is now finding out to his cost), can do whatever they want without repercussions.

andrewf75

BLB53 wrote: »

For a lot of people, this is not so much about economics but more about taking back control from the EU.

Some remainers say we did not vote to be poorer. Well I do not know whether we will be economically better off if/when we leave. What is important is having the freedom to do our own thing without the likes of Mr Junker saying we can't do this or that or we have to do it this way. I think for many who voted to leave, this is at the heart of the discontent.

I understand this in theory. In an ideal world I imagine everyone would want to be completely independent. But in reality we are a completely sovereign nation and working together with other countries on things doesn't prevent us from doing anything really. Yes, we'd have more control on immigration, but what difference will that really make? Very little I suspect. People come mainly to meet demand. Same with rules and regulations, very little will change. It will make no sense to diverge from EU rules on most things.
No-one will notice the slightest difference in terms of "having the freedom to do what we like"

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm not sure it's valid to claim we don't know if we'll be better off or not when we leave; even the pro-Leavers have said we'll be worse off and no-one seems to be claiming we'll be better. At this stage it's more a case of figuring out how much worse off we'll be, and if that additional freedom is worth it.
...

Will the EU be better off or worse off if we leave on default terms? (the complete break scenario)

It seems to me that if you vote for Remain then you are backing the future EU to deliver prosperity.

On a risk basis, I have had serious concerns about the ability of the EU. It has certainly lost a big chunk of world trade over recent decades. The Euro has not exactly delivered on the promises. Youth unemployment in the Eurozone is worryingly high in a number of states, and there doesn't seem to be any ambitious plans to fix this.

What I do know is, if the EU suffers financially and we are part of it, then we get asked to pay more. Cameron had to foot an extra couple of billion only a few years ago.

We continue to carry excess burden in the EU, whilst hundreds of billions are ploughed into the Eastern European states. This *isn't* a level playing field as pro-EU advocates like to proclaim.

StevieJ

andrewf75 wrote: »

I understand this in theory. In an ideal world I imagine everyone would want to be completely independent. But in reality we are a completely sovereign nation and working together with other countries on things doesn't prevent us from doing anything really. Yes, we'd have more control on immigration, but what difference will that really make? Very little I suspect. People come mainly to meet demand. Same with rules and regulations, very little will change. It will make no sense to diverge from EU rules on most things.
No-one will notice the slightest difference in terms of "having the freedom to do what we like"

I suspect that we will notice, but if you are poor it won't be pretty

andrewf75

StevieJ wrote: »

I suspect that we will notice, but if you are poor it won't be pretty

Well yeah, because the only advantage to diverging from EU rules in the eyes of the lead Brexiteers is to bow even more to big business and lower standards. I find it truly baffling how so many poor people buy the idea that less regulations is a good thing.

MobileSaver

kabayiri wrote: »

What I do know is, if the EU suffers financially and we are part of it, then we get asked to pay more. Cameron had to foot an extra couple of billion only a few years ago.

Everything in life is relative. What does it matter if we have to pay a few billion more to the EU if it still means we are better off overall as a country and as a member? It is incredibly blinkered to assume that paying into and/or paying more to the EU is automatically a bad thing.

My own opinion is that if we do leave we'll soon find the £9 billion or so we were paying into the EU every year was pretty good value for money...

Filo25

MobileSaver wrote: »

Everything in life is relative. What does it matter if we have to pay a few billion more to the EU if it still means we are better off overall as a country and as a member? It is incredibly blinkered to assume that paying into and/or paying more to the EU is automatically a bad thing.

My own opinion is that if we do leave we'll soon find the £9 billion or so we were paying into the EU every year was pretty good value for money...

Indeed, everywhere pretty much has subsidy from richer to poorer areas anyway, it is much the same in the UK where London and the South East are pretty much the net contributors to the rest of the country

kabayiri

MobileSaver wrote: »

Everything in life is relative. What does it matter if we have to pay a few billion more to the EU if it still means we are better off overall as a country and as a member? It is incredibly blinkered to assume that paying into and/or paying more to the EU is automatically a bad thing.
...

If I see risk in the EU, then I don't worry about a few billion quid. I see risk in the longer term direction.

It is incredibly blinkered (to use your phrasing) to focus on short term, as Remain people usually do, and not consider long term where the big challenges for this EU sit.

andrewf75

kabayiri wrote: »

If I see risk in the EU, then I don't worry about a few billion quid. I see risk in the longer term direction.

It is incredibly blinkered (to use your phrasing) to focus on short term, as Remain people usually do, and not consider long term where the big challenges for this EU sit.

I see risks in the EU as almost everyone does, but my long term view tells me we should stay and help solve those challenges rather than run away. I personally couldn't give a monkeys about the short term implications of Brexit, IMO we're headed for recession anyway and many things need a big shake up. Its very much the long term which made my decision which way to vote. The world faces many difficult challenges and each country looking after number one is a recipe for disaster IMO.