If there is a second referendum ...

LHW99

EFTA has the benefits of being in the EEA but at a cost. EFTA with the UK and some other EU27 nations would be a different proposition and could negotiate a better relationship with the EU within the EEA.

So go back to the position before 1973? I thought it was Leavers being accused of wanting to go back to the past.

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

The result may well be Scottish independence

Given that referendum are now to be held until the right result is obtained. Independence is inevitable. Democracy as we know it will likewise become irrelevant.

Thrugelmir

kabayiri wrote: »

On a risk basis, I have had serious concerns about the ability of the EU. It has certainly lost a big chunk of world trade over recent decades. The Euro has not exactly delivered on the promises. Youth unemployment in the Eurozone is worryingly high in a number of states, and there doesn't seem to be any ambitious plans to fix this.

The EU has brought a whole new pool of labour into the equation when bringing Eastern European States into the fold in the past 10 years. Combined with China's commitment to do anything cheaper to win the business. The decline is hardly unexpected (in manufacturing). The EU is increasingly service driven.

kabayiri

BobQ wrote: »

This could well be the case. But we are not the only member who disliked more integration. The obvious out come would be that those members moved to an expanded EFTA-type arrangement which would be more powerful/influential the bigger it became.
...

Could this outer group really change things though?

We know the modus operandii of the EU; they aren't adverse to individual states rerunning referendums until the 'right' result is arrived at.

Without further integration, I don't see how the EU resolves some of it's problems. You can't have multiple states in the Eurozone behaving like Italy when it comes to budget.

kabayiri

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The EU has brought a whole new pool of labour into the equation when bringing Eastern European States into the fold in the past 10 years. Combined with China's commitment to do anything cheaper to win the business. The decline is hardly unexpected (in manufacturing). The EU is increasingly service driven.

In the 90s, a number of major corps (often American) sold the idea that Indian workers would do all the bulk coding work, leaving European and American IT people to the project and design work.

Only a decade later, and these same Indian firms were offering the full range of services, including the higher value work.

It was obviously only natural they would expand their operations.

I see the same with China. If there is value there, they will move into sectors like service. Why shouldn't they? If your ambition is to be global #1 then you need to have a wide economy.

MobileSaver

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Given that referendum are now to be held until the right result is obtained.... Democracy as we know it will likewise become irrelevant.

Please could you explain how holding a referendum (the very definition of democracy) makes democracy irrelevant?!?!

kabayiri

MobileSaver wrote: »

Please could you explain how holding a referendum (the very definition of democracy) makes democracy irrelevant?!?!

I don't particularly worry about another referendum. But then, if the last campaign was bad tempered and disingenuous, I can't see the next one being any different.

It's not going to bring an end to the dissatisfaction people feel.

walesrob

Thrugelmir wrote: »

G Independence is inevitable.

I wouldn't be sure about that. The UK is having problems leaving the EU club, I'd imagine the job of independence for NI, Wales or Scotland would be a lot more problematic, given the much tighter integration.

MisterMotivated

MobileSaver wrote: »

Please could you explain how holding a referendum (the very definition of democracy) makes democracy irrelevant?!?!

*Yawn*


We've been through this already; demanding another referendum because you disagree with the last one is NOT the "very definition of democracy".

Democracy (noun):

control of an organization or group by the majority of its members

Another referendum would make democracy irrelevant because you are attempting to deny the majority of voters the outcome for which they voted, ie to leave the EU.

MobileSaver

MisterMotivated wrote: »

another referendum because you disagree with the last one is NOT the "very definition of democracy".

Just because you keep saying the same thing does not make it true!

A referendum IS the very definition of democracy whether you like it or not.

It's like claiming another General Election is undemocratic because the majority voted for the current government a few years ago so why vote again. Clearly baloney.

MisterMotivated wrote: »

Another referendum would make democracy irrelevant because you are attempting to deny the majority of voters the outcome for which they voted,

Nonsense. A referendum allows everyone to vote again and if the majority still want to Leave then que sera sera, which part of that makes democracy irrelevant?

The irony is that it is the Leavers like you who want to thwart democracy because you're no longer confident that the democratic majority would vote the same way as last time.