Kleeneze

EthanM

brian09tt wrote: »

I think you have a point about bigger numbers of people hearing a negative story. As you say many join and do not work the system at all, in many cases not even bothering to collect books they have delivered, they fail pretty quick and then tell people it doesn't work. Do you think more care should be taken in recruiting the right people and in explaining the business in a more frank way to reduce false expectations?

YES I definitely do, however most of the people I met including my sponsor and also Rob Forster himself who has apparently pioneered this system that everybody tries to duplicate and are taught at EVERY meeting to do so, say you must just
“throw people into the system, like a funnel…a lot will drop out so you just have to work with the people that STICK”
You then
“plug them into the system”
where they are taught to do the same themselves……along the way a lot of Distributors crash and burn, but scandalously this is totally acceptable because after all
“It’s a numbers game”

People were treated like pawns in a chess game, after all the boys at the top will not be affected by 10 or even 100 dropping out…they just hope to find the good ones and sod the rest…it was the total lack of respect for people trying dammed hard and yet not having any real success that I found appalling and hardest to stomach in the end, they were treated like failures and compared to somebody who had been in the same length of time and yet had been more successful…
When you talk to some of “The successful people” they admit they had been fortunate to find some focused people quickly and in a lot of the cases they had done less work than the people who were struggling.

Yeah I understand the thinking behind the funnel system and it is more duplicatable but I agree I don't like it either.

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

I very much doubt you have been an agent or if you have for a very short time as you would know that what your saying is totally wrong.

I don't care what you doubt, I know the truth and I know I am right for my experience and that of many others.

EthanM wrote: »

If you doubt this just read the few posts above from real Ex Kleeneze agents that are not pro Kleeneze but telling it as it really is. They both tell the facts about orders which completely contradict your claims. My own experience matches theirs.

I could read the FEW posts, but I could also read the MANY posts in other threads that support me.

Maybe you live in an area where people are willing to pay a fiver for cleaning fluid they can get from a local shop for under a pound, but most of don't.

EthanM wrote: »

In regards to your point about me disappearing again another false statement, the truth is the thread was locked immediately after your post. You seem to delight in twisting the truth.

In will have to take your word for that as I didn't notice it being closed, nor did I specifically notice it NOT being closed.

EthanM wrote: »

Finally in regards to your harking on about the price, it is copletely irrelavant the question is whether the products sell and they do, see earlier point.

I think the question if price is relevant, especially when it is way above what other places charge for similar products.

£5 for a bottle of cleaner you can get in a supermarket for £1. If people really did pay for that you wouldn't be a K agent, you'd be down the cash and carry buying it for 40p and taking £4.60 profit instead of the small percentage of commission you get from K, which they claw back in charges for everything.

.

geordie_joe

Well I have to apologise to EthanM, just checked and the thread was closed. My fault for not noticing, although I do think "I bet you £10,000" was a bit childish.

I did a search for kleeneze, to find the thread again, but the first one I looked at contained this.

I am now in my 5th year with Kleeneze and still make a few quid a week off it, although sometimes I feel that I am doing it more as a public service and out of loyalty to my customers than anything else.

I have had over 600 customers at one point and 5 team members under me, though I have whittled out the customers who didn't buy anything in a whole year and now have around 300 left.

All my team members lasted no more than 5 months, even with the training and encouragement that I provided, although I have another team member supposedly starting as soon as they save up the £125 that they need to start.

Let's take the first paragraph.

Still making a few quid each week but feels like he's doing it as a public service.

Para two

Had over 600 customers but half of them had not bought anything for over a year. The other 300 only make him "a few quid per week" and he thinks of it more as a public service to his customers. He also had 5 team members under him. (My translation of this is "5 other people were working their nuts off so he could take a cut of what they earned").

Para three

"All my team members lasted no more than 5 months" Poor soul, but look on the bright side, there's another mug saving up to line his pockets for a few months.

EthanM

geordie_joe wrote: »

Well I have to apologise to EthanM, just checked and the thread was closed. My fault for not noticing, although I do think "I bet you £10,000" was a bit childish.

I did a search for kleeneze, to find the thread again, but the first one I looked at contained this.



Let's take the first paragraph.

Still making a few quid each week but feels like he's doing it as a public service.

Para two

Had over 600 customers but half of them had not bought anything for over a year. The other 300 only make him "a few quid per week" and he thinks of it more as a public service to his customers. He also had 5 team members under him. (My translation of this is "5 other people were working their nuts off so he could take a cut of what they earned").

Para three

"All my team members lasted no more than 5 months" Poor soul, but look on the bright side, there's another mug saving up to line his pockets for a few months.

Amazing that you go and hunt out threads and quote them and all they do is prove your comments about one or two orders from family and friends is completely wrong.

Lets take a statement from the posts I pointed you to from Brian in response to my question.

If they do order, do they only order once or twice or do you actually get customers that go on to order on a regular basis over a lengthy peroid of time?
Some just order 1 or 2 times about 50% go on to be regular customers

Ok then you quote above from an old thread.

I have had over 600 customers at one point and 5 team members under me, though I have whittled out the customers who didn't buy anything in a whole year and now have around 300 left.

Ok so in other words after doing an order or two 300 of his 600 didn't order, or exactly 50% continued being customers. Seems to exactly match what Brian was saying and my own experience and nothing close to what you are claiming which is all the new Kleeneze agent gets is a few one or two orders from friends and colleagues.
Your statements are just plain wrong, although it's nice that you did at least admit your comments about me disappearing were incorrect.

Your also wrong about prices, not least that you are ignoring delivery, but as the argument is a complete red herring I have no intention of wasting yet more time on it.

geordie_joe

brian09tt wrote: »

Do total strangers that recieve Kleeneze books through their door order?
Yes all the time, about 1 in 10-15 on blanket drops

If they do order, do they only order once or twice or do you actually get customers that go on to order on a regular basis over a lengthy peroid of time?
Some just order 1 or 2 times about 50% go on to be regular customers

OK, someone said you drop books every month, or it could have been every other month so I'll go for every other month.

The guy/gal I quoted earlier had 600 customers. At 1 in ten he would have had to drop 6,000 books to gain 600 customers. At 1 in 15 he would have had to drop 9,000 books. That's a lot of books, and a big area to cover.

He ditched 300 because they had not placed an order for over a year. One book every other month is 6 books per year. He dropped 300 x 6 = 1,800 books and didn't get a single order! Not including the new areas he was trying as half the people who placed an order were not placing any more.

Plus we don't know the time scales or how he worked it out. He may have just crossed off those people who had not placed an order for 12 months. But the people who placed an order 11 months ago may never place another order too. So each month he can look at his customers and cross off people who have not placed an order for 12 months.

The people who placed an order 11 months ago, and don't place another one will be crossed off next month. The people who placed an order 10 months ago, and don't place another one will be crossed of in two months time. And guess when the people who placed an order 9 months ago, and don't place another one, will be crossed off.

See my point? His customer base is shrinking.

Fair play to the guy, he worked his b*llocks off dropping 1,800 books and getting no orders. And that was to people who had previously placed an order! How does that fit in with 1 in 10 place and order and 50% of them become regular customers.

It will if you consider that 1 in 10 means 1 in 10 people who have never seen a kleeneze book.

When you first see a book, and fall for the hype and buy some cleaner for £5, then find it works no better or no worse than cleaner you can pick up at Tescos for £1 and it's often on a bogof offer you soon learn to sling the Kleeneze books out into the street when they come through the door.

And if you live in my home town in the North East, or my adoped home town in Dorset you make damn sure the tw*t who put put them through your door won't be putting them through anyone else's door.

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

Amazing that you go and hunt out threads and quote them and all they do is prove your comments about one or two orders from family and friends is completely wrong.

Nope, that's just you twisting things. Yes I said most of your orders come from those people, but that was to illustrate that that is the way the system works. At first you sell to people you know, and they buy just because it's you. But they soon get sick and when you have to start selling to strangers it all falls apart.

EthanM wrote: »

Lets take a statement from the posts I pointed you to from Brian in response to my question.

If they do order, do they only order once or twice or do you actually get customers that go on to order on a regular basis over a lengthy peroid of time?
Some just order 1 or 2 times about 50% go on to be regular customers

Ok then you quote above from an old thread.

I have had over 600 customers at one point and 5 team members under me, though I have whittled out the customers who didn't buy anything in a whole year and now have around 300 left.

Ok so in other words after doing an order or two 300 of his 600 didn't order, or exactly 50% continued being customers. Seems to exactly match what Brian was saying and my own experience and nothing close to what you are claiming which is all the new Kleeneze agent gets is a few one or two orders from friends and colleagues.
Your statements are just plain wrong,

You obviously didn't read my post where I show that it may not have been a year since the other half placed an order.

I doubt the guy dropped all those books in the same month.

EthanM wrote: »

although it's nice that you did at least admit your comments about me disappearing were incorrect.

It's only fair, if I am wrong I will admit it.

EthanM wrote: »

Your also wrong about prices, not least that you are ignoring delivery, but as the argument is a complete red herring I have no intention of wasting yet more time on it.

I am not wrong about the prices, they are there on the web site for anyone to see. A little tip if you do look, use the zoom button at the bottom right of the screen, otherwise the writing is too small to read.

The simple fact is they are charging £12 per litre for bog standard cleaning liquid that can be bought in any shop for a lot less.

EthanM

geordie_joe wrote: »

OK, someone said you drop books every month, or it could have been every other month so I'll go for every other month.

Hmm "someone said" It is blindingly obvious that you have not been a Kleeneze agent you wouldn't need to rely on "someone said" in order to know how often we drop books.

Further you would know all your maths was wrong because we wouldn't drop a book for a year to a customer who only ordered on the first drop.

You see again and again you make totally crass statements because you do not know what you are talking about.

All those that have had any serious involvement with Kleeneze can see that, though maybe you can fool some of the people that haven't been. I guess that must be your motive.

Oh can you at least see that the post you quoted of someone with 600 customers doesn't back up your argument of "only friends and colleagues" or are you going to still keep hanging on to that fallacy?

EthanM

geordie_joe wrote: »

Yes I said most of your orders come from those people, but that was to illustrate that that is the way the system works. At first you sell to people you know, and they buy just because it's you. But they soon get sick and when you have to start selling to strangers it all falls apart.

Yes I've seen you argue this over and over and like I keep saying it's complete rubbish.

When you join Kleeneze you do not typically get your sales from people you know. If you had been a Kleeneze agent you would know this. The vast bulk of sales from the very beginning are from complete strangers. Hence the whole basis of your argument is on a foundation of sand.

If you don't believe me ask the very experienced Kleeneze agents that have been posting just recently. They will tell you that you are wrong and you will continue on anyway.

Jo_F

Ok here's how I did mine....

First ever drop, every catalogue to every house on x amount of streets, (area 1)went back to pick up, made a note of who said no more, who looked, who didn't and who ordered.

Repackaged cat packs, and moved on the to next lot of streets, did all the same again. (area 2)

Worked it over a 4 week cycle. (now include areas 3 and 4)

Cycle two... back to area of first drop, miss out the ones that said no thanks. Collect cats back, make further notes of who looked, who didn't who ordered.

Work a 4 week cycle covering all areas previously covered. (1 area per week)

Cycle 3.
Ditch all the people that had cats twice and didn't look, now only dropping to houses that looked and/or ordered. Round now about half the amount of house it was at the start, so condense some drops together and spread to a previously unvisted by me area.... this new area starts with the same process as the first cycle. (week 1, areas 1&2, week 2 area 3, week 3 area 4, week 4 new area)

Cycle 4, normal drop on areas 1 to 4, 2nd cycle for new area.

Cycle 5, normal drop on areas 1 to 4, 3rd cycle for new area, so that means cats dropped to households that have looked and/or ordered.

Can now condense again, and spread out into another area.

And so the cycle continues, each time a cycle comes to an end, I went further afield (something that you can't do with betterware)

Eventually I had covered about 3/4 of the town that I live in, and I did it all by foot, yes every 6 or 7 months it got busy as I did blanket drops again to the houses that had not previously looked at the cats, picked new customers up, on average 10 for each 100 books dropped.

When I was doing my 'customer' base only (that's the looked/bought) I was dropping about 150 cats on a Friday, picking them up Monday, putting the order in Wednesday, delivering the next lot of cats Friday morning, and doing my deliveries Friday evening, all in all roughly about 10 hours a week.

From the very start I was hitting the silver level each month, roughly about £1k in sales each month, and also manage just short of £2k a few times.

Oh and friends did not become customers, customers became friends.

geordie_joe

EthanM wrote: »

Hmm "someone said" It is blindingly obvious that you have not been a Kleeneze agent you wouldn't need to rely on "someone said" in order to know how often we drop books.

No, actually I was recalling a conversation with you. I was pointing out that someone who had just started with kleeneze and has posted about getting orders had not come back to say he had repeat orders. Your reply was

Really? Actually it does no such thing. You see no one drops to the same houses for at least a month. So 2 weeks later he would be dropping to New houses. Proving absolutely nothing about re-orders.

At the time I couldn't remember if you said at least a month or at least every other month, so tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now you have forced me to dig deeper you can double my calculations as they were based on dropping boks ever other month not each month.

EthanM wrote: »

Further you would know all your maths was wrong because we wouldn't drop a book for a year to a customer who only ordered on the first drop.

The guy said he dropped the customers who had not placed an order for a year. They may have placed an order on the first, second and third drops.

The point is he must have given them books for a year to be able to drop them as customers. If he'd stopped giving them books before that they would not be on his list of customers.

EthanM wrote: »

You see again and again you make totally crass statements because you do not know what you are talking about.

No, my statements are valid, and I know, because I have been to the seminars that all you can do is claim I can't be a kleeneze agent. I know the pater, "anyone who knocks kleeneze can't have been an agent".

EthanM wrote: »

All those that have had any serious involvement with Kleeneze can see that, though maybe you can fool some of the people that haven't been. I guess that must be your motive.

I think most people will disagree with that. I don't want to fool anyone, I just want to make sure they know the truth about Kleeneze.

And that truth is, if you join you will be selling overpriced goods just so the people above you can make money. They will persuade you to join just so they can get a cut of your earnings for a few months. And when your sales start to fall they will tell you it's because you are not working hard enough.

They tactfully avoid the questions you ask, like when you ask how much the catalogues cost they reply with

our downline don't pay for any more books as we give them free, up until there income reaches a decent level.

You have to be persistent and keep asking the question until you get an answer. Even if it means you have to write the question in big red letters.

EthanM wrote: »

Oh can you at least see that the post you quoted of someone with 600 customers doesn't back up your argument of "only friends and colleagues" or are you going to still keep hanging on to that fallacy?

It backs up my statement that once your friends and family stop buying things get tough. The strangers may buy once or twice, but they soon drop off. You can easily drop 1,800 books to previous customers and not get one single order.

Kleeneze are very big on telling people to concentrate on repeat customers, but nobody pays £5 for a £1 bottle of cleaner more than once.