Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

ruperts

movilogo wrote: »

As if we had a say till now! Why didn't we ask for Freedom of Movement to be stopped (the main force behind Brexit)?

We had plenty of say and would have had more were it not for the likes of Farage making a mockery of it by refusing to participate.

We didn't ask for FOM to be stopped because no elected government wanted it to be stopped.

Herzlos

movilogo wrote: »

As if we had a say till now! Why didn't we ask for Freedom of Movement to be stopped (the main force behind Brexit)?

We had an equal seat at the table, with a veto. We also have a raft of elected MEPs (like Farage) who never really engaged (or turned up).


Post Brexit we have no seat at the table, no MEPs and no say. We'll still have all the rules to follow though if we want to continue trading with them.

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

Or, depending on your bias, several good reasons to stay in the EU.


In any case, if we want to keep trading with the EU (spoiler: we do), then we're going to have to comply with almost all of those regulations even though we'll have no say in them. Excellent, isn't it?

It would be excellent, it would show that the EU actually believe the rubbish they spout.

I do believe you to be a righteous person, the issue is youre being hoodwinked by an organisation. The EU isnt like you. You say they have regulations people need to adhere to in order to trade with them yes? Ask yourself, or them, what labour regulations the EU make morocco and algeria adhere to in turn for their gold and diamonds?

A family friend has their family business shut down a few year ago. They where tomato growers (i know in the uk right,m but yeh tomatoes grow here) they couldnt compete with the subsidies italian rgowers where getting. So its looks like the EU favoured italian tomato growers over british. Just doesnt seem that righteous. Getting to mroe recent times we ve seen italian tomato growers raising issues with imported tomatoes (and spuds) from egypt and morrocco. Whys that? SUrely the EU apply the same standard to them as they do the Italian tomato growers? But then i suspect the imported crops wouldnt be as cheap if they did.

This is the issue with the EU. They make out theyre righteous whilst just walking about holding a clipboard with their thumb tickling their rectum. They are counter productive to what im sure are our shared righteous views.

Put up or shut up. They didnt put anything forward. They can im sure, they should im sure of that too, why arent they?

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

We had an equal seat at the table, with a veto. We also have a raft of elected MEPs (like Farage) who never really engaged (or turned up).


Post Brexit we have no seat at the table, no MEPs and no say. We'll still have all the rules to follow though if we want to continue trading with them.

This is an oxymoron remainers get caught up in.

If everyone in the Eu has a voice and everyone in the Eu has the ability to ignore that voice (veto) what can be achieved?

The EU: We want an army

The UK : haha vetoooooooo

EU: OK well do nothing.

The UK: We want to talk about free movement problems.

Germany: lolz.... veto einlegen

So you have either nothing being achieved without unilateral support, hard on something like gibraltar where spain and the UK just arent going to agree. Or you get to a stage where the rules and regs of which the EU is based on get warped and twisted to allow for progress (neither good nor bad at this stage but movement). None of these are good for anybody. Are they?

Herzlos

That's what happens though, and why Brexiteers claim that someone the EU is a dictatorship whilst still allowing itself to be held to ransom by small regions. Usually everyone at least is on the same page, and there are a few iterations of wording/negotiation until everyone is happy(ish)

spadoosh wrote: »

Ask yourself, or them, what labour regulations the EU make morocco and algeria adhere to in turn for their gold and diamonds?

Without doing further research I'd have to say that the free trade agreements there don't cover gold and diamonds, those goods covered by the FTAs have some associated arrangements (like regulations), and that with diamonds at least they won't be purchased by the EU unless approved by whomever does that.


That's not to comment on how well things are scrutinized and regulations upheld.



Maybe I worded my comment poorly, we'll need to follow the EU's rules if we want to trade with them as we are now. If we drop down to a FTA or partial FTA, then we won't have to follow all of the associated rules.

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

Without doing further research I'd have to say that the free trade agreements there don't cover gold and diamonds, those goods covered by the FTAs have some associated arrangements (like regulations), and that with diamonds at least they won't be purchased by the EU unless approved by whomever does that.


That's not to comment on how well things are scrutinized and regulations upheld.



Maybe I worded my comment poorly, we'll need to follow the EU's rules if we want to trade with them as we are now. If we drop down to a FTA or partial FTA, then we won't have to follow all of the associated rules.

And that exactly what will happen. The EU will bend their rules to suit them as and when it suits them. At the expense of some in the EU on the premise it benefits more than it costs on the whole. The issue i have with this is as a proper lefty, i cant help but think about those who will be neglected to pander whoever needs to be pandered to at that time.

cogito

Moby wrote: »

In what way exactly? Brexit supporters still can't articulate a clear vision for a post Brexit Britain.They hate the EU. But they still don't really know why. They hate that they banned certain vaccums and have rules on bananas and want an EU army and assume we all agree with them that these are negatives. We don't!


They also don't really pay any attention to the positive EU rules around holding multinational companies to account and stopping mobile phone companies from daylight robbery with roaming charges, social, employment and environmental legislation, security co-operation etc.
They may hate immigration, but ignore the fact that it was the UK New Labour government who unilaterally decided to not have controls when Poland etc joined the EU and that the bulk of our immigration is from outside of the EU.
All of this hatred is tied up with a confusion around national identity. A weird longing for a "better" past that nobody alive can really remember and almost certainly didn't exist. At least not for ordinary people. Take back control, strike our own trade deals. How will any of this improve our lives? None of you can tell us!

You use the word hatred a lot but it only exists in your own imagination. There are no doubt a few people who hate the EU and hate immigrants but there are also those on the remain side who appear to hate their own country and believe that we would be better of with the status of a parish council subservient to the EU. I find it remarkable that these people seem to think that the EU is without fault. You say that those who support brexit had no idea what they were voting for but never respond when asked what kind of remain you voted for although it's become a bit clearer in your support for the fatally flawed Euro, the flawed Schengen agreement which enables criminals and illegals to cross borders unhindered and the EU army that was never going to happen.

And some of us do pay attention to the things you cite as positives, some of which like employment protection laws, health and safety legislation and environmental laws which were enacted in the UK long before the EU even existed. The Clean Air Act was in force for years before the German government took any action to stop acid rain destroying the Black Forest and the its only in the last few weeks that a German court has ordered clearance to stop in the ancient Himbach Forest which was being destroyed for lignite mining, for God's sake. This in the absence of any action on the part of the German government to protect this ancient woodland.

So I don't really think that the EU should be given credit for laws introduced by the UK. Do you?

Moby

cogito wrote: »

You use the word hatred a lot but it only exists in your own imagination. There are no doubt a few people who hate the EU and hate immigrants but there are also those on the remain side who appear to hate their own country and believe that we would be better of with the status of a parish council subservient to the EU. I find it remarkable that these people seem to think that the EU is without fault. You say that those who support brexit had no idea what they were voting for but never respond when asked what kind of remain you voted for although it's become a bit clearer in your support for the fatally flawed Euro, the flawed Schengen agreement which enables criminals and illegals to cross borders unhindered and the EU army that was never going to happen.

And some of us do pay attention to the things you cite as positives, some of which like employment protection laws, health and safety legislation and environmental laws which were enacted in the UK long before the EU even existed. The Clean Air Act was in force for years before the German government took any action to stop acid rain destroying the Black Forest and the its only in the last few weeks that a German court has ordered clearance to stop in the ancient Himbach Forest which was being destroyed for lignite mining, for God's sake. This in the absence of any action on the part of the German government to protect this ancient woodland.

So I don't really think that the EU should be given credit for laws introduced by the UK. Do you?

The remain I voted for was what we already had. I repeat....... show me in what way brexit is going to make our lives better? It looks like May's plan is the option we'll have before us soon.....so since you lot are responsible for the situation we are in....how will May's plan make our lives better? How will it be a better deal than we have already if as Joe Johnson says we'll be paying for access and having no decision making powers!


Of course its natural to find flaws in things you don't agree with, however the EU has bolstered and improved on national legislation in the areas I mentioned so yes I do give the EU credit for that. I also take some comfort in pointing out that if we sign up to a UK wide customs arrangement it seems the EU will ensure we do not backslide on these commitments in future!

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

We had an equal seat at the table, with a veto. We also have a raft of elected MEPs (like Farage) who never really engaged (or turned up).


Post Brexit we have no seat at the table, no MEPs and no say. We'll still have all the rules to follow though if we want to continue trading with them.

There are very few areas where a veto now exists and they are being constantly eroded to QMV as the Commission uses its powers under the self-amending Lisbon Treaty. As for the MEPs, what power do they have exactly? They can't propose or reject laws handed down by the Commission. They can only recommend amendments that the Commission can ignore if they wish. The Europarl is just a talking shop and the people of the EU have woken up to this by not bothering to get out of bed to vote in MEP elections.

Thrugelmir

ruperts wrote: »

We didn't ask for FOM to be stopped because no elected government wanted it to be stopped.

Seriously ?