Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

phillw

wunferall wrote: »

The ones who should be ashamed are those remainers who persist in trying to undermine a democratic vote, because they are the ones who most risk the resurgence of the party they confess to hating.

Democracy absolutely requires past decisions to be challenged. Farage said it was ok to challenge the result if there wasn't a clear majority.

The people who should be ashamed are those who lie and say that democracy is being undermined by having a second referendum.

I actually think we should go no deal and let people live through it for a while, there will be mass demonstrations not seen since the poll tax for a second referendum.

Thrugelmir

phillw wrote: »

The EU and the euro is a peace project intended to create a community of countries that have no reason to go to war.

The Euro came much later. As the project moved to a political rather than trade based focus.

phillw

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The Euro came much later. As the project moved to a political rather than trade based focus.

The Euro and the EU itself came later, but the whole point of it from the early days of the EEC to today and into the future is a peace process. Trade is one of the ways they achieve that peace, ECJ, Euro, free movement of people and capital are others.

Which is why the EU are not so focused on minimising the trade impact of brexit, they want to maintain the peace above all else, undermining one would destabilise it all. They're prepared for the impact of standing up for their principals, we're not.

The UK was never really interested in it as a peace project, we only wanted to know what we could take from it. We think we've taken as much as we can, so now we are leaving. The cost of leaving will be greater than £350 million a week, so on that basis it's a dumb move.

chucknorris

phillw wrote: »

The people who should be ashamed are those who lie and say that democracy is being undermined by having a second referendum.

Lie? Could they not simply be mistaken? I voted remain by the way, but I don't see the need to inflame the situation by calling people liars.

kabayiri

How can it be a peace project when the likes of Hungary and Poland have been threatened with sanctions by the EU politicians. It's creating tension.

Like it or not, these nations do not like migration forced upon them which they feel is counter to the wants of their citizens.

I think there is room for an Union of European states, but not this one. It's tried to be too ambitious, too quickly IMO.

Enterprise_1701C

phillw wrote: »

Democracy absolutely requires past decisions to be challenged. Farage said it was ok to challenge the result if there wasn't a clear majority.

The people who should be ashamed are those who lie and say that democracy is being undermined by having a second referendum.

I actually think we should go no deal and let people live through it for a while, there will be mass demonstrations not seen since the poll tax for a second referendum.

How is that a lie? What would happen if the second one was for leave, would there be a third? How about if it was 52-48 for remain, would it suddenly be undemocratic to ask for a new referendum to settle the stalemate?

We have had the referendum, I vote Remain, leave won and I am now more and more grateful for that, seeing the attitude of some remainers on here.

kabayiri

phillw wrote: »

...
There is no way any UKIP politician will be given the ability to spread their fear and lies again. The people who ever voted for them should be ashamed.
...

Given the ability?

Says who? You?

Tell me, have you always been a fan of authoritarian principles?

phillw

chucknorris wrote: »

Lie? Could they not simply be mistaken?

It started out as a lie, if people are repeating it then it's still a lie.

kabayiri wrote: »

Given the ability?

Yes, by the bbc for example in the idea of creating balanced debate.

kabayiri wrote: »

Says who? You?

Says the media.

kabayiri wrote: »

Tell me, have you always been a fan of authoritarian principles?

No, I'm in favour of democracy, but the referendum wasn't democratic by any means. If leave had been forced to tell the truth, then the result would have gone the other way.

The project fear label was just a lie because there was no way of refuting what remain said.

Thrugelmir

phillw wrote: »

The Euro and the EU itself came later, but the whole point of it from the early days of the EEC to today and into the future is a peace process.

I didn't disgree with this.

Which is why the EU are not so focused on minimising the trade impact of brexit

What's the issue with Eire then?

The UK was never really interested in it as a peace project,

Once in a while. You do wonder where people get their information from.

phillw

Thrugelmir wrote: »

What's the issue with Eire then?

The EU is trying to maintain peace in Ireland, what don't you understand?

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Once in a while. You do wonder where people get their information from.

History. We only joined when we wanted something out of it. I know it must hurt to be on the bad side, but you chose it. At least admit it.

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

What would happen if the second one was for leave, would there be a third? How about if it was 52-48 for remain, would it suddenly be undemocratic to ask for a new referendum to settle the stalemate?

Farage said he would continue if there wasn't a clear majority, there was even a petition demanding a second referendum before the first one. Which was set up by a leave voter.

The second referendum isn't just a repeat of the first either, because during the first there was a vague question about leaving the eu or not. With no indication of how it would affect you, other than some smiley politicians saying "go on leave, you'll be better off trust me".

If Theresa May is unable to get a deal, which is looking more and more likely because the EU is going to stand by it's principals while the Conservative government are tearing each other apart, then there is no other way than holding some form of election to solve the problem.

Unless you think all the leavers were prepared to lose their jobs just so they could stop foreigners coming here and making a positive contribution to our economy.

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

We have had the referendum, I vote Remain, leave won and I am now more and more grateful for that, seeing the attitude of some remainers on here.

I can't do anything for your prejudice. If you vote to hurt the UK just because people say things you disagree with then it's just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Which is what the voters in the first referendum did. That is one argument against democratic process I guess, there is a responsibility on voters when making their decisions & if you can't cope with it then maybe you shouldn't have a vote.