Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

Have you got any citations for this? It sounds like the sort of thing that the anti-EU mob would have been screaming about but I've not heard anything.

Three prominent Bulgarian journalists have been murdered recently. Each of them was investigating corruption in the Bulgarian government and, of course, it's the Bulgarian government who are investigating their murders.

Nothing directly involving the EU except that Bulgaria, Romania and one or two other countries were fast tracked into the EU despite failing to comply with the Copenhagen criteria thus proving that the EU can bend its own red lines when it's expedient to do so.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

One of the reasons I voted leave was my view that pragmatism should not trump democratic accountability. Happy to concede that others feel differently though.

No-one is talking about removing democratic accountability, I think. You can be accountable without following mob rule.
It's a very common rule in engineering trades that what the customer asks for is not always what they want, and it's important to identify what they want (more NHS funding, for instance) instead of what they asked (Leave the EU).

At some level pragmatism has to trump democracy or emotion though. If a political party got into power by promising a moon base, at what point do we concede it's not possible or viable?

Herzlos

I don't particularly like the EU and I'd have happily voted Leave if I felt the promises were possible. Pragmatism led me to vote Remain, because I'd rather be enjoying the prosperity of the EU whilst trying to change it from the inside rather deal with the failed promises of the Leave campaign and be on the outside with Leavers blaming the EU for everything.

Any credible plan or alternative would have swayed me, but I'm not a big fan of diving into the unknown shouting "it'll be alright, jack". If you fail to prepare, prepare to fail and all that.

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Three prominent Bulgarian journalists have been murdered recently. Each of them was investigating corruption in the Bulgarian government and, of course, it's the Bulgarian government who are investigating their murders.

Nothing directly involving the EU except that Bulgaria, Romania and one or two other countries were fast tracked into the EU despite failing to comply with the Copenhagen criteria thus proving that the EU can bend its own red lines when it's expedient to do so.

Ah, so it's got nothing to do with the the EU after all.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

No-one is talking about removing democratic accountability, I think. You can be accountable without following mob rule.
It's a very common rule in engineering trades that what the customer asks for is not always what they want, and it's important to identify what they want (more NHS funding, for instance) instead of what they asked (Leave the EU).

At some level pragmatism has to trump democracy or emotion though. If a political party got into power by promising a moon base, at what point do we concede it's not possible or viable?

The current budget approval spat between the EU commission and the Italian Government I think makes my point. Pragmatism probably dictates that Italy should remain part of the Eurozone and fall into line with those in the commission who are tasked with upholding the rules of the single currency.
Political accountability however dictates that when it comes to the Italian economy the mandated Italian Government voted for directly by the Italian people should hold sway over those in the commission who have never stood for election in any Italian vote.

Herzlos

Filo25 wrote: »

It seems to be something the EU brings out in people.

Or the EU portrayed by the right wing propaganda at least. The group's voting against it in the larger numbers also seem to be the ones least likely to be engaged with it.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

The current budget approval spat between the EU commission and the Italian Government I think makes my point. Pragmatism probably dictates that Italy should remain part of the Eurozone and fall into line with those in the commission who are tasked with upholding the rules of the single currency.
Political accountability however dictates that when it comes to the Italian economy the mandated Italian Government voted for directly by the Italian people should hold sway over those in the commission who have never stood for election in any Italian vote.

Exactly. Do you take the pragmatic choice and protect the economy whilst upsetting the people, or do you take the popular choice and risk the economy to keep the people happy in the short term whilst it doesn't backfire and upset the people anyway?

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

Exactly. Do you take the pragmatic choice and protect the economy whilst upsetting the people, or do you take the popular choice and risk the economy to keep the people happy in the short term whilst it doesn't backfire and upset the people anyway?

Strange that the Italians are facing the fury of the EU commission by proposing a budget that will have a deficit of 2.4% of GDP but France has a deficit of 3% and the EU Commission aren't bothered. But as Juncker famously said on another matter 'well, it's France so it's OK'

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Strange that the Italians are facing the fury of the EU commission by proposing a budget that will have a deficit of 2.4% of GDP but France has a deficit of 3% and the EU Commission aren't bothered. But as Juncker famously said on another matter 'well, it's France so it's OK'

Hopefully a member state will bring it up at some point, because it definitely should be addressed.

LHW99

At some level pragmatism has to trump democracy or emotion though. If a political party got into power by promising a moon base, at what point do we concede it's not possible or viable?

JFK promised to land a man on the moon by the end of the decade (1960's) and that was not possible or viable at the time - but it was not conceded as impossible, it was done.