Land Registry questions

BarkingMad

Dear Land Registry, I've been helping my parents register their leasehold. It's a 999 year lease minus 57 year for an annual payment of £12.50 that doesn't increase. We've recently been granted a "good leasehold" because (I suspect) we presented insufficient evidence and/or the land registry has no evidence that the landlord owns the freehold to the land, and therefore "absolute leasehold" is not possible. 

I've spoken to the landlord about providing some evidence of the freehold land ownership. They are looking through their documents. This doesn't sound promising. Other properties in the street have bought the lease from the landlord and are now registered as freehold on the land registry.

My parents neighbour has "absolute leasehold" and this was entered into the register in 2003. We have asked the neighbour to look for anything they have regarding the freehold of the land. 

Since there are some freehold and some absolute leasehold properties in the same street it suggests to me (maybe incorrectly) that there is some evidence somewhere of the landlords freehold. EDIT: Another alternative for absolute freehold would be hving a good leashold title for 12 years without contestation were it can be upgraded to absolute without any evidence.

Looking at the MSE forums, it looks like we need a document (possibly A3 sized) that is called "The abstract of title"? Is that correct? Would there be anything else to look for?  

The land was bought by the builder in the 1960's from a farmer as part of a liquidation sale.

Thank you

roadweary

Dear Land Registry,

I'm remortgaging a buy to let property and transferring 99% equity to my wife.  We'll be Tenants in Common.

I've already filled in a TR1 form for the lender's legal firm and now an RX1. 

They are now asking me to fill in a Deed of Trust that declares how the balance of a sale would be dealt with.  It's expensive and we really don't want to incur that expense.

Is this Trust Deed required by yourselves in order to register the ownership as above?  

Thank you,
R

slottieslotkins

Hi @Land_Registry,

We are currently waiting on a merger of the title deeds of the house we are buying - it holds both an expired leasehold and a freehold title at the minute and have applied for these to be merged. The process was expedited on 1st June, but we haven't heard anything back yet. We only have a few weeks left on our mortgage so we are anxious to get things moving. If you would be able to check on the progress of this, that would be great. Title numbers are SYK247309 and SYK309556.

Thank you

Land_Registry

BarkingMad said:

Dear Land Registry, I've been helping my parents register their leasehold. It's a 999 year lease minus 57 year for an annual payment of £12.50 that doesn't increase. We've recently been granted a "good leasehold" because (I suspect) we presented insufficient evidence and/or the land registry has no evidence that the landlord owns the freehold to the land, and therefore "absolute leasehold" is not possible. 

I've spoken to the landlord about providing some evidence of the freehold land ownership. They are looking through their documents. This doesn't sound promising. Other properties in the street have bought the lease from the landlord and are now registered as freehold on the land registry.

My parents neighbour has "absolute leasehold" and this was entered into the register in 2003. We have asked the neighbour to look for anything they have regarding the freehold of the land. 

Since there are some freehold and some absolute leasehold properties in the same street it suggests to me (maybe incorrectly) that there is some evidence somewhere of the landlords freehold.

Looking at the MSE forums, it looks like we need a document (possibly A3 sized) that is called "The abstract of title"? Is that correct? Would there be anything else to look for?  

The land was bought by the builder in the 1960's from a farmer as part of a liquidation sale.

Thank you

Your understanding is correct and where you have a large area of land, with one set of deeds, and it’s split up and sold off then you have to have a way of proving title. You can’t split the one set of deeds so you create an Abstract, or perhaps an Epitome, and as each bits sold then they rely on the Abstract/Epitome plus the new lease or conveyance or transfer as appropriate. 

Hopefully your detective work comes up trumps 

Land_Registry

roadweary said:

Dear Land Registry,

I'm remortgaging a buy to let property and transferring 99% equity to my wife.  We'll be Tenants in Common.

I've already filled in a TR1 form for the lender's legal firm and now an RX1. 

They are now asking me to fill in a Deed of Trust that declares how the balance of a sale would be dealt with.  It's expensive and we really don't want to incur that expense.

Is this Trust Deed required by yourselves in order to register the ownership as above?  

Thank you,
R

No but that doesn’t mean they don’t need it for own purposes. Outstanding PG 24 and joint property ownership provide the type of guidance we can offer re trusts 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-trusts-of-land

And
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership

roadweary

Land_Registry said:

roadweary said:

Dear Land Registry,

I'm remortgaging a buy to let property and transferring 99% equity to my wife.  We'll be Tenants in Common.

I've already filled in a TR1 form for the lender's legal firm and now an RX1. 

They are now asking me to fill in a Deed of Trust that declares how the balance of a sale would be dealt with.  It's expensive and we really don't want to incur that expense.

Is this Trust Deed required by yourselves in order to register the ownership as above?  

Thank you,
R

No but that doesn’t mean they don’t need it for own purposes. Outstanding PG 24 and joint property ownership provide the type of guidance we can offer re trusts 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-trusts-of-land

And
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership

Thank you.  I've parked the RX1.  I've asked the lender to confirm that the TR1 will confirm that we will be Tenants in Common with a 99% share to my wife.  I'm just trying to understand what further I need to do from a Land Registry and HMRC perspective so that this unequal share of equity is recognised officially?

Land_Registry

slottieslotkins said:

Hi @Land_Registry,

We are currently waiting on a merger of the title deeds of the house we are buying - it holds both an expired leasehold and a freehold title at the minute and have applied for these to be merged. The process was expedited on 1st June, but we haven't heard anything back yet. We only have a few weeks left on our mortgage so we are anxious to get things moving. If you would be able to check on the progress of this, that would be great. Title numbers are SYK247309 and SYK309556.

Thank you

We have just the one application to determine (close) the leasehold title SYK309556. It’s not been expedited and I can’t see any request for that from around 1st June
Nothing against the first and freehold title so it’s not in order as we’d need an application against both titles.
I’ll flag it with colleagues to expedite the application we have and the casework team will contact the conveyancer direct if any issues exist 

Land_Registry

roadweary said:

Land_Registry said:

roadweary said:

Dear Land Registry,

I'm remortgaging a buy to let property and transferring 99% equity to my wife.  We'll be Tenants in Common.

I've already filled in a TR1 form for the lender's legal firm and now an RX1. 

They are now asking me to fill in a Deed of Trust that declares how the balance of a sale would be dealt with.  It's expensive and we really don't want to incur that expense.

Is this Trust Deed required by yourselves in order to register the ownership as above?  

Thank you,
R

No but that doesn’t mean they don’t need it for own purposes. Outstanding PG 24 and joint property ownership provide the type of guidance we can offer re trusts 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-trusts-of-land

And
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership

Thank you.  I've parked the RX1.  I've asked the lender to confirm that the TR1 will confirm that we will be Tenants in Common with a 99% share to my wife.  I'm just trying to understand what further I need to do from a Land Registry and HMRC perspective so that this unequal share of equity is recognised officially?

I assume your reference to a TR1 as it’s in your sole name at present but you’re transferring it to yourself and the wife. 

If so then the guidance on how to complete panel 10 of form TR1 explains what we might need. 

HMRC needs would be for them to advise on 

Land_Registry

gold1234 said:

Land_Registry said:

gold1234 said:

Land_Registry said:

gold1234 said:

Good morning LR.  I am purchasing a property.  It is currently now on hold (1 step before exchange) because 2 of the title documents are the same, and we require confirmation that they are and for the discrepancy to be corrected on the official copies.  This was sent last week on Wednesday.  We have a short timeline to complete, and this is a bottleneck.  It has been expedited.  Please confirm how long it may take to resolve end to end, and if this can be resolved quicker?

Title number: K666963

The title has a conflict re the date quoted in two connected entries. The request to amend it was submitted 9th June and it may not be considered/amended for a couple of weeks yet as the old paperwork will need to be retrieved and checked. 

I’ll flag with team to see if someone can assist sooner in circumstances 

Thank you for your swift reply.  Could you please confirm if this is a couple of weeks from today, or from the 9th June?  It would be great if someone can assist sooner for this, as it's urgent for us.

A couple of weeks from now. But I said I’d flag with colleagues, which I have. Looking at it, without the historical paperwork, it is a simple amendment but I’ll know more tomorrow hopefully. 

Hope that makes more sense 

I really appreciate this, and I look forward to hopefully hearing from you tomorrow.

The register has been amended and the conveyancer notified 

BarkingMad

Land_Registry said:

BarkingMad said:

Dear Land Registry, I've been helping my parents register their leasehold. It's a 999 year lease minus 57 year for an annual payment of £12.50 that doesn't increase. We've recently been granted a "good leasehold" because (I suspect) we presented insufficient evidence and/or the land registry has no evidence that the landlord owns the freehold to the land, and therefore "absolute leasehold" is not possible. 

I've spoken to the landlord about providing some evidence of the freehold land ownership. They are looking through their documents. This doesn't sound promising. Other properties in the street have bought the lease from the landlord and are now registered as freehold on the land registry.

My parents neighbour has "absolute leasehold" and this was entered into the register in 2003. We have asked the neighbour to look for anything they have regarding the freehold of the land. 

Since there are some freehold and some absolute leasehold properties in the same street it suggests to me (maybe incorrectly) that there is some evidence somewhere of the landlords freehold.

Looking at the MSE forums, it looks like we need a document (possibly A3 sized) that is called "The abstract of title"? Is that correct? Would there be anything else to look for?  

The land was bought by the builder in the 1960's from a farmer as part of a liquidation sale.

Thank you

Your understanding is correct and where you have a large area of land, with one set of deeds, and it’s split up and sold off then you have to have a way of proving title. You can’t split the one set of deeds so you create an Abstract, or perhaps an Epitome, and as each bits sold then they rely on the Abstract/Epitome plus the new lease or conveyance or transfer as appropriate. 

Hopefully your detective work comes up trumps 

Thanks you for your quick reply.

Looking at the land registry website I have found another leasehold property in the street that has a "value stated of £XX on 01 Dec 2021". So quite recent. Purchasing the title register shows it be "absolute leasehold". Comparing this with the my parents neighbours absolute leasehold register entry, they both have a "C: Charges Register" section that says (redacted)

This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

Class of Title: Title absolute

By a Conveyance of the freehold estate of the land in this title and other land dated 6 March 1950 made between (1) WS (2) WLG and (3) TS and JS the land was conveyed subject as follows........

They have slightly different entry dates (19 Nov 2002 and 20 Feb 2003) but I'm guessing these are first registration dates.

I'm guessing the above conveyance of land dated 6 March 1950 gives those properties "absolute leasehold". 

EDIT: Looking at my parents Lease document is mentions TS and JS, the builder EK and my parents. I *think* there may be other docs in my parents possession which related to the builders purchase of the land which were not submitted at first registration because I thought they were not relevant. :-(  If we find a document dated 6 March 1950, I think we need to submit a UT1, with the document(s) and a £40 fee. 

Thank you again.