Land Registry questions

HWBY

Good afternoon @Land_Registry ! Are you able to share if there's been an update on our issue? It was predicted 17th/18th, but solicitor says there hasn't been anything (I know, it's only early afternoon...). The title deed (?) is BD310011. 

Land_Registry

HWBY said:

Good afternoon @Land_Registry ! Are you able to share if there's been an update on our issue? It was predicted 17th/18th, but solicitor says there hasn't been anything (I know, it's only early afternoon...). The title deed (?) is BD310011. 

It’s just been completed and the register updated 

HWBY

Land_Registry said:

HWBY said:

Good afternoon @Land_Registry ! Are you able to share if there's been an update on our issue? It was predicted 17th/18th, but solicitor says there hasn't been anything (I know, it's only early afternoon...). The title deed (?) is BD310011. 

It’s just been completed and the register updated 

Wonderful, thanks for letting us know! Have a nice day

seasidesaver

Land_Registry said:

seasidesaver said:

Thanks very much for your reply.

I originally contacted the official Land Registry support number, who advised me that I needed to submit the TR1 and AP1 forms.  I downloaded the forms, and then thought that it might be better to ask a solicitor for help.  However it has proved impossible to find a solicitor who understands the issue, and is prepared to deal with it in a reasonable time frame so I have now decided to complete the forms myself.

I’ve looked at the official guidance, and the blog on gov.uk which points to MSE as being a reliable source of information.  I’ve searched through the forum, to find situations similar to my own, and have now been able to complete the forms, but just wanted to check that I hadn’t misunderstood something critical.

Many thanks, understood and appreciated. So you asked us re which forms you needed to transfer and we were able to advise. 

The bit I’m interested in is the advice to transfer, so one stage back from the forms themselves. We can’t advise you on what to do but we can tell you which forms are needed to update the register once you’ve decided what to do. So I’m asking more to help others like you and as you say in a similar situation as the advice to transfer is the bit I’m interested in 

In my experience reading forums it’s a common scenario. Joint owners who split their beneficial ownership and leave their halves in trust but the surviving owner can stay put so to speak - apologies as easiest way for me to put it 

I always wonder what advice they both got at the time of doing that to explain what actually could happen when one of them sadly dies?
We register the legal ownership, which can’t be split, so that’s passed to you to deal with hence any transfer now would be by you to you and whoever. 

But the trust element re you staying put is in place and the beneficiaries, the children, are protected by it. Many joint owners also apply for a form A restriction (did you?) to be added to the register to indicate the trust exists and to restrict you for example selling.
If all of that was done then some might say you don’t need to do anything to transfer now. You could just complete the form DJP. And when the trust comes to an end when you die then your executors deal with both beneficial ownerships as necessary. 

As I said we don’t know what advice is given hence my asking and I often wonder if there are advantages to putting the legal ownership into joint names again when the children may already own homes for example or plan to so could be an impact there? 

As I said not challenging your advice or option but just trying to understand the scenario better as well. 

Note - I’ve searched the topic online re wider advice and here’s a link that may be of interest/help but there are others as well  
https://garner-hancock.co.uk/blog/joint-tenants-vs-tenants-in-common/
The tenants in common aspect is often linked to the form A restriction/trust I referred to hence the linked information 

Thank you for your detailed reply.  The title no. is WSX227916.  I have a copy of the title, from 2005 when the change to tenants in common was made, and there is a Form A restriction.

The will setting up the trust dates from 2017.  My husband’s reasoning for this arrangement was partly that there would be a slight reduction in the value of the estate for IHT purposes, but primarily to mitigate the potential effect of care home fees.  The trust came into effect at the date of death, and cannot be changed.  The trustees are the three children, and me. 

My understanding is that half the house is now in trust for the children, but they don’t actually inherit/own it until I die.  I have the right to remain in the property, or any other property if I should decide to sell, and am responsible for the upkeep and maintenance; no sale can take place without my written consent.

I have not had any specific advice from solicitors regarding this issue - I contacted the solicitor who drew up the original will to ask for help; she told me that the rules had changed, that the trust should be limited to £325000, which would be more beneficial as regards IHT, and that I should sign a deed of variation to that effect.  I eventually (six months after first contacting her) received a draft deed - made out with someone else’s details, at which point I moved on.

The solicitor I have currently been dealing with has explained in detail how the trust works, and the fact that a deed of variation would not be valid because there are potential beneficiaries (unborn children) who can’t give their consent.  She said that at the moment the trust does not have to be registered with HMRC, as there is no income, but that this situation might change in the autumn.

 She notes that “the trust arrangement will need to be reflected at the Land Registry”.  Her conveyancing colleague was due to be dealing with this on my behalf, but after 10 weeks of no contact, despite email chasing, I have told her that I now don’t require her services. 

If I were just to submit form DJP, then would the whole house be in my name? 

As regards the children owning their own property, two already were owners at the date of death; the third has just bought her first property; I made enquiries at the time regarding her first-time buyer status, and the view was that she wouldn’t actually own her share of my property until such time as I die, and therefore this would not be affected.

 I wonder whether if/when HMRC requires the trust to be registered, they might expect the Land Registry to reflect this? 

It seems that this issue is not as clear cut as I thought, so maybe I should try again to find a solicitor able to assist within a reasonable timeframe?

HomeBuyer22

Hi @Land_Registry, please can I check if our case re title CB361321 will be looked at today? I understand it's with legal to review so just wanted to ask as we have an imminent exchange deadline. 

Nellie15

Nellie15 said:

Nellie15 said:

Land_Registry said:

Nellie15 said:

Land_Registry said:

Nellie15 said:

Hi Land Registry. 

Could you tell
me if anything is happening with this application. 

Application Reference: HG7673E Title Number: NYK485182

 It has missed every  completion date and is now over  14 months from submission
also could you check NYK 34609
thanks . 

Still with us. Expedited.And we asked conveyancer for more on 21st. Waiting for a reply
NYK34609 - nothing pending and hasn’t been since 2014

Hi I have submitted  it myself and have not had any correspondence. I have request contact via email. 

Made a mistake on the other title number it’s nyk 346079 
Thanks for your help. 

NYK485182 - letter issued dated 21st July 

NYK346079 - a letter was issued to the applicant on 20th July

Different postal addresses provided on the two applications. 

If you haven’t received the letters at both address in next few days I’d suggest using our contact us form to query 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry#online

Thanks. Worried now about the contents of the letters 😂😂

Hi I have returned NYK 346079 with th amendments.  Will this be dealt with soon or will there be a long wait ? 

The other title will be a week or two as it involves other people.
Thanks 

Good Morning Land Registry, I was told that this would be escalated on Monday. Could you see if there are any updates please. I need to provide a copy of the title in our name for planning permission 
Thanks 

Land_Registry

HomeBuyer22 said:

Hi @Land_Registry, please can I check if our case re title CB361321 will be looked at today? I understand it's with legal to review so just wanted to ask as we have an imminent exchange deadline. 

It has been referred to a senior officer after lengthy correspondence with the conveyancer. Hopefully they have now solved the issue and things can proceed. As it’s an expedite that will be asap 

Land_Registry

Nellie15 said:

Nellie15 said:

Nellie15 said:

Land_Registry said:

Nellie15 said:

Land_Registry said:

Nellie15 said:

Hi Land Registry. 

Could you tell
me if anything is happening with this application. 

Application Reference: HG7673E Title Number: NYK485182

 It has missed every  completion date and is now over  14 months from submission
also could you check NYK 34609
thanks . 

Still with us. Expedited.And we asked conveyancer for more on 21st. Waiting for a reply
NYK34609 - nothing pending and hasn’t been since 2014

Hi I have submitted  it myself and have not had any correspondence. I have request contact via email. 

Made a mistake on the other title number it’s nyk 346079 
Thanks for your help. 

NYK485182 - letter issued dated 21st July 

NYK346079 - a letter was issued to the applicant on 20th July

Different postal addresses provided on the two applications. 

If you haven’t received the letters at both address in next few days I’d suggest using our contact us form to query 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry#online

Thanks. Worried now about the contents of the letters 😂😂

Hi I have returned NYK 346079 with th amendments.  Will this be dealt with soon or will there be a long wait ? 

The other title will be a week or two as it involves other people.
Thanks 

Good Morning Land Registry, I was told that this would be escalated on Monday. Could you see if there are any updates please. I need to provide a copy of the title in our name for planning permission 
Thanks 

It has been processed and wider checks are now taking place. These are time sensitive so if you receive a notification from us then please read it carefully and respond as directed 
The checks involve both transferor and transferee 

Land_Registry

seasidesaver said:

Land_Registry said:

seasidesaver said:

Thanks very much for your reply.

I originally contacted the official Land Registry support number, who advised me that I needed to submit the TR1 and AP1 forms.  I downloaded the forms, and then thought that it might be better to ask a solicitor for help.  However it has proved impossible to find a solicitor who understands the issue, and is prepared to deal with it in a reasonable time frame so I have now decided to complete the forms myself.

I’ve looked at the official guidance, and the blog on gov.uk which points to MSE as being a reliable source of information.  I’ve searched through the forum, to find situations similar to my own, and have now been able to complete the forms, but just wanted to check that I hadn’t misunderstood something critical.

Many thanks, understood and appreciated. So you asked us re which forms you needed to transfer and we were able to advise. 

The bit I’m interested in is the advice to transfer, so one stage back from the forms themselves. We can’t advise you on what to do but we can tell you which forms are needed to update the register once you’ve decided what to do. So I’m asking more to help others like you and as you say in a similar situation as the advice to transfer is the bit I’m interested in 

In my experience reading forums it’s a common scenario. Joint owners who split their beneficial ownership and leave their halves in trust but the surviving owner can stay put so to speak - apologies as easiest way for me to put it 

I always wonder what advice they both got at the time of doing that to explain what actually could happen when one of them sadly dies?
We register the legal ownership, which can’t be split, so that’s passed to you to deal with hence any transfer now would be by you to you and whoever. 

But the trust element re you staying put is in place and the beneficiaries, the children, are protected by it. Many joint owners also apply for a form A restriction (did you?) to be added to the register to indicate the trust exists and to restrict you for example selling.
If all of that was done then some might say you don’t need to do anything to transfer now. You could just complete the form DJP. And when the trust comes to an end when you die then your executors deal with both beneficial ownerships as necessary. 

As I said we don’t know what advice is given hence my asking and I often wonder if there are advantages to putting the legal ownership into joint names again when the children may already own homes for example or plan to so could be an impact there? 

As I said not challenging your advice or option but just trying to understand the scenario better as well. 

Note - I’ve searched the topic online re wider advice and here’s a link that may be of interest/help but there are others as well  
https://garner-hancock.co.uk/blog/joint-tenants-vs-tenants-in-common/
The tenants in common aspect is often linked to the form A restriction/trust I referred to hence the linked information 

Thank you for your detailed reply.  The title no. is WSX227916.  I have a copy of the title, from 2005 when the change to tenants in common was made, and there is a Form A restriction.

The will setting up the trust dates from 2017.  My husband’s reasoning for this arrangement was partly that there would be a slight reduction in the value of the estate for IHT purposes, but primarily to mitigate the potential effect of care home fees.  The trust came into effect at the date of death, and cannot be changed.  The trustees are the three children, and me. 

My understanding is that half the house is now in trust for the children, but they don’t actually inherit/own it until I die.  I have the right to remain in the property, or any other property if I should decide to sell, and am responsible for the upkeep and maintenance; no sale can take place without my written consent.

I have not had any specific advice from solicitors regarding this issue - I contacted the solicitor who drew up the original will to ask for help; she told me that the rules had changed, that the trust should be limited to £325000, which would be more beneficial as regards IHT, and that I should sign a deed of variation to that effect.  I eventually (six months after first contacting her) received a draft deed - made out with someone else’s details, at which point I moved on.

The solicitor I have currently been dealing with has explained in detail how the trust works, and the fact that a deed of variation would not be valid because there are potential beneficiaries (unborn children) who can’t give their consent.  She said that at the moment the trust does not have to be registered with HMRC, as there is no income, but that this situation might change in the autumn.

 She notes that “the trust arrangement will need to be reflected at the Land Registry”.  Her conveyancing colleague was due to be dealing with this on my behalf, but after 10 weeks of no contact, despite email chasing, I have told her that I now don’t require her services. 

If I were just to submit form DJP, then would the whole house be in my name? 

As regards the children owning their own property, two already were owners at the date of death; the third has just bought her first property; I made enquiries at the time regarding her first-time buyer status, and the view was that she wouldn’t actually own her share of my property until such time as I die, and therefore this would not be affected.

 I wonder whether if/when HMRC requires the trust to be registered, they might expect the Land Registry to reflect this? 

It seems that this issue is not as clear cut as I thought, so maybe I should try again to find a solicitor able to assist within a reasonable timeframe?

That is super helpful, very well explained and I’m sure it will benefit others on MSE
It also highlights a few things where uncertainty can creep in and why it’s always a good idea to get the right legal/financial advice - not saying you haven’t but the difference between wills/trust and conveyancing is demonstrated in your own experience. 

From a purely registration perspective the legal ownership has passed to you. Form DJP simply updates the register re the sad death of the other joint legal owner. 

Selling the property isn’t a consent issue as in essence only you can sell it as the legal owner. The form A, probably applied for to protect the will/trust, does restrict you from selling on your own but you could if you appointed someone to act with you. You’d still be subject to the beneficiaries claims of course. 

The wider information re care fees/IHT and more are not ones we deal with so I can’t advise. However I have seen multiple posts on forums re such advice/choices and some (not all) posters claim such choices don’t achieve what’s perhaps expected, especially as rules/laws change over time  

Finally, I think it is advisable to seek wider legal/financial advice here just to update yourself re your legal ownership and the beneficiaries interests. Plus of course what happens next depending on changing circumstances 
It may transpire you are advised to just update things with the form DJP or it may advise on transferring the title - we can do both but we can’t tell you which is best as explained previously 

bambi1980_2

Hi, can anyone help please - 

During the conveyancing process selling our leasehold house we have had enquiries raised by our buyers solicitors. They are saying that the copy of the lease sent to them by our solicitor relates to next door.

On our copy of register of title it states that there is one lease for the garden and one for the house. It’s quite an old property at 1855. It also states that no copy of the lease is held at the LR. 

I don’t quite know why this wasn’t picked up when we purchased the house in 2016. We therefore haven’t got indemnity insurance for this. 

The solicitor is asking my solicitor to contact LR and rectify this and revert - I don’t really understand what they can do as they don’t hold the document. 

What can be done about this now, would an indemnity policy cover it?