Public Sector Pay Restraint Ending?

Tromking

economic wrote: »

what you lot dont seem to realise is that if you think nurses should get a pay rise, someone will have to pay for it and it will be the taxpayer. there are cuts all across government/public sector. why are nurses so special to deserve a pay rise at taxpayer expense? taxpayer expense means some other current public service or benefit or future generations will have to pay for it.

believe me if it were possible for robotics to takeover nurses (as long as it was econimical to do so) it would happen and then you lot will be crying about something else or how nurses have no job anymore. the irony is if nurses were paid more it becomes economical to replace them with robotics once/if this technology becomes advanced enough to do so.

I'll ignore the last paragraph as it's so juvenile it doesn't warrant discussion.
As I've said to others before, you're making a 2008 argument to solve a 2017 and beyond problem.
When a Tory like Stephen Dorrell makes the argument that the 1% pay cap specifically and wage restraint generally is not sustainable and will and already is affecting delivery of healthcare to patients, what is your answer?
You have the luxury of being able to say numerous things to justify why they shouldn't get it, the problem for Dorrell, NHS England and the Government is that they have to address the problem, spouting inane drivel on Internet forums isn't an option for them.
For the first time in many years more Nurses and Midwives are leaving the profession than joining. What's your solution?
Join the grown-ups and discuss.

scd3scd4

economic wrote: »

what you lot dont seem to realise is that if you think nurses should get a pay rise, someone will have to pay for it and it will be the taxpayer. there are cuts all across government/public sector. why are nurses so special to deserve a pay rise at taxpayer expense? taxpayer expense means some other current public service or benefit or future generations will have to pay for it.

believe me if it were possible for robotics to takeover nurses (as long as it was econimical to do so) it would happen and then you lot will be crying about something else or how nurses have no job anymore. the irony is if nurses were paid more it becomes economical to replace them with robotics once/if this technology becomes advanced enough to do so.

No one is suggesting nurses are special. My wife works in the back office of the job centre. But 7 years is 7 years. I think they have contributed enough to the deficit. Or maybe you think it should go on for another year or 5 or 10 years?


The increments can also be a red herring. My wife was at the top of her grade so never received any extra money and my daughter was half way at the beginning of the 7 years so only received a few years of the 7 increments.


We all know people are replaced if possible. They did it where you said you worked easily enough. Good luck with replacing nurses. I go to the eye hospital every few months. They have all the latest machines but need plenty of nurses to operate them.

economic

if all of you think its unjust, then at least please propose a sensible proposal and no just increasing nurse wages is not good enough - someone will have to pay for it.

Herzlos

economic wrote: »

if all of you think its unjust, then at least please propose a sensible proposal and no just increasing nurse wages is not good enough - someone will have to pay for it.

It'll potentially pay for itself. Hospitals pay a fortune for contracters to fill gaps (as much as 4x a nurse would cost), as well as paying a fortune for sick leave, and the whole stitch-in-time concept. So paying nurses more and getting sufficient staff will cut the contracting bill (because there are less gaps to fill), the sick leave bill (because they aren't as overworked), and patients can be treated earlier whilst the treatment is cheaper.

If somehow it doesn't pay for itself, then I'm such the MPs would be happy to take a reduction in salary & subsidies, since "we're all in it together".

Or they could at least pretend to show some solidarity by refusing a pay rise above the NHS cap. It'd still net them about 3x the raises the nurses get.

Tromking

economic wrote: »

if all of you think its unjust, then at least please propose a sensible proposal and no just increasing nurse wages is not good enough - someone will have to pay for it.

Increase Corporation tax.
Increase personal taxes.
Slash the foreign aid budget.
End private school tax relief...........
In essence you make a political choice to make decent public sector remuneration one of the many things the state decides to fund.
Now, how about you tell us how to solve the burgeoning recruitment and retention issues in the public sector.
I don't reckon you can.

economic

Tromking wrote: »

Increase Corporation tax.
Increase personal taxes.
Slash the foreign aid budget.
End private school tax relief...........
In essence you make a political choice to make decent public sector remuneration one of the many things the state decides to fund.
Now, how about you tell us how to solve the burgeoning recruitment and retention issues in the public sector.
I don't reckon you can.

the only ones i agree with are stopping foreign aid and private school tax relief. the other two will likely make things worse as others in this country will have to pay for it.

the problem is we are in so much debt and deficit that any stopping of aid/relief would not mean it should all be just spent on nurses but be used to reduce the deficit as a whole instead - much fairer.

you could argue that private school tax relief is a good thing for those who otherwise wouldnt be abe to afford it - so that their child can reach their potential. but i agree that those who can afford it without the relief should not get a relief in the first place.

GreatApe

Public sector should be paid the same as the private sector plus or minus about 1% (as you couldn't hit it exactly for any given year). Right now they are paid 3% more than the probste sector. Should they should get below inflation pay increases until the two are the same. If then we have a nurse shirtgage or a fore fighter shirtgage or an x shirtgage then pay can be increased for them however you would need to lower pay for other public sector workers to make up the difference so that overall the public and private sector are paid the same.

So if there is truely a need to pay nurses more to retain them then pay them more but you will need to do so by paying other public sector workers less. It is unfair that public sector workers are already paid more and people want this to go up

BTW I think a pay increase of 1-2% for nurses would do FA to stop them leaving. If I hare a job or dins it too difficult and my boss offered me 1% more it would male zero difference. The retention problem can only be solved by a significant pay rise which would be unaffordable. The alternative would be to import nurses from poorer countries which is also undesirable but has been a big part of the NHS for decades.

Personally I like nurses. Double their pay I don't care. But find the money from the paychecks of other public sector workers. Maybe bag if wind is willing to see his income cut 15% so nurses can enjoy a 15% pay rose its only fair nurses do a dofocult job and bag of wind just surfs the net all day

GreatApe

Tromking wrote: »

Increase Corporation tax.
Increase personal taxes.
Slash the foreign aid budget.
End private school tax relief...........
In essence you make a political choice to make decent public sector remuneration one of the many things the state decides to fund.
Now, how about you tell us how to solve the burgeoning recruitment and retention issues in the public sector.
I don't reckon you can.

The public sector already pays 3% more than the private sector for an equivalently educated person and public sector workers enjoy more protections and security.

So you want to increase pay further by directly and indirectly taxing mostly the private sector? How is that fair?

Also the aid budget were it scrapped should not be uses specifically for one purpose it can be used to cut income taxes which would help both private and public sector workers

economic

GreatApe wrote: »

Personally I like nurses. Double their pay I don't care. But find the money from the paychecks of other public sector workers. Maybe bag if wind is willing to see his income cut 15% so nurses can enjoy a 15% pay rose its only fair nurses do a dofocult job and bag of wind just surfs the net all day

hahahahaha, this is so funny yet soooo true.

Tromking

economic wrote: »

the only ones i agree with are stopping foreign aid and private school tax relief. the other two will likely make things worse as others in this country will have to pay for it.

the problem is we are in so much debt and deficit that any stopping of aid/relief would not mean it should all be just spent on nurses but be used to reduce the deficit as a whole instead - much fairer.

you could argue that private school tax relief is a good thing for those who otherwise wouldnt be abe to afford it - so that their child can reach their potential. but i agree that those who can afford it without the relief should not get a relief in the first place.

So no solutions to the 'unsustainable pay cap'.
As I thought.