Public Sector Pay Restraint Ending?

GreatApe

Tromking wrote: »

Maybe it's not fair.
But you have a recruitment and retention problem in the NHS, what's your solution?

Firstly I don't believe most of what is printed in the media. Or rather most of it is printed with close to zero investigation and understanding most of them just seem to copy and past each other. Total !!!!.

There is a recruitment and retention problem in almost every industry and sector. Everything from fast food workers to solicitors. Turnover of jobs or number of vacancies is not proof of pay problems. There is lots of turnover in every industry and close to 750,000 unfolded jobs at any one time.

So firstly I am not convinced the problem is worse in nursing than y other sectors and industries

But if it is indeed worse and if there is an actual shortage then something will need to be done. These may be as simple as advertising better or encouraging more kids to study nursing or it may indeed be giving nurses a 50% pay rise. If it is pay increases it should be done but only in the picture that average overall public sector pay should not be higher than average private sector pay adjusted for education levels. Of is at least already 3% advantage to the public sector in fact I think its likely a bigger advantage that is underreported when you take into account not just the grade of education but the institution of the award.


So once more
Not convinced its a problem
If it is then there are possible multiple solutions one of which is more pay probably the most blunt of the options
If more pay for nurses needs to be less pay for prison guards that spend all day posting on the internet that nurses need more pay.

I think this is a reasonably fair analysis. Just crying nurses do difficult work for low wages (I agree) isn't doing the problem any justice.

Herzlos

economic wrote: »

the solution is - let the free market decide. which it already does - wages are set by supply and demand. a potential solution is to stop all immigrants who are low skilled or poor. then you will see nurse pay rise.

We're already seeing the free market in effect - the NHS is having real problems with retention. In a free market, however, it'd be allowed to increase wages to bring in more staff, but it's not allowed to do so. If the cap wasn't there and the free market was allowed to run, then wages would have come up and we wouldn't have the retention issues.

I'm not sure where immigrants come into it. They made up a lot of nurses but now don't. Wages still can't rise because they aren't allowed to.

scd3scd4

economic wrote: »

the solution is - let the free market decide. which it already does - wages are set by supply and demand. a potential solution is to stop all immigrants who are low skilled or poor. then you will see nurse pay rise.

Errrr. Have you been listening. There is a demand but nurses are saying NO, leaving and not likely to say yes while the current situation continues.


Free market? You know the NHS is not private right. Are you serious or acting as a bit of a plank?

Tromking

economic wrote: »

the solution is - let the free market decide. which it already does - wages are set by supply and demand. a potential solution is to stop all immigrants who are low skilled or poor. then you will see nurse pay rise.

Nurses and Midwives are leaving because of a pay cap. You don't want the pay cap to go, how does the free market help?
Think again, a solution please to solve the problem.

GreatApe

Tromking wrote: »

The word "unsustainable" was used by Stephen Dorrell.
I do get that you want public and private sector linked to aid fairness, but what happens when that ends up in pay restraint that effects delivery to the public.
Your idea that some public servants should take pay cuts to fund others, is frankly laughable and will just create other areas of poor retention.
Again, what is your solution, and make it sensible this time.

Like I have said multiple times I do not think there is a problem. If it exists at all its likely a very small problem. I don't not see the fairness is paying public sector workers more when they already have higher pay and better security and often better lower risk pensions than private sector workers.

Just because the media says something doesnt make it valid or true.
Just because a politician says something doesn't make of valid or true.

As I have also said multiple tomes. You can not look at staff turnover or vacancy numbers for evidence of a problem. Using that metric there is a problem in all industry and sectors.

If nursing needs more people I would imagine advertising or doing something at university levels or college level to encourage more kids to become nurses would be more affective and quicker. Better more nurses study than more photography students (we aparantly train more of those than is needed for the entire EU)

scd3scd4

GreatApe wrote: »

So once more
Not convinced its a problem.

You would if you worked on a paediatric ward. But as you don't then you wont.

Tromking

GreatApe wrote: »

Firstly I don't believe most of what is printed in the media. Or rather most of it is printed with close to zero investigation and understanding most of them just seem to copy and past each other. Total !!!!.

There is a recruitment and retention problem in almost every industry and sector. Everything from fast food workers to solicitors. Turnover of jobs or number of vacancies is not proof of pay problems. There is lots of turnover in every industry and close to 750,000 unfolded jobs at any one time.

So firstly I am not convinced the problem is worse in nursing than y other sectors and industries

But if it is indeed worse and if there is an actual shortage then something will need to be done. These may be as simple as advertising better or encouraging more kids to study nursing or it may indeed be giving nurses a 50% pay rise. If it is pay increases it should be done but only in the picture that average overall public sector pay should not be higher than average private sector pay adjusted for education levels. Of is at least already 3% advantage to the public sector in fact I think its likely a bigger advantage that is underreported when you take into account not just the grade of education but the institution of the award.


So once more
Not convinced its a problem
If it is then there are possible multiple solutions one of which is more pay probably the most blunt of the options
If more pay for nurses needs to be less pay for prison guards that spend all day posting on the internet that nurses need more pay.

I think this is a reasonably fair analysis. Just crying nurses do difficult work for low wages (I agree) isn't doing the problem any justice.

If you don't think there is a problem with this. Fair enough.

GreatApe

scd3scd4 wrote: »

Errrr. Have you been listening. There is a demand but nurses are saying NO, leaving and not likely to say yes while the current situation continues.


Free market? You know the NHS is not private right. Are you serious or acting as a bit of a plank?

Can you name one industry where people aren't continuously leaving?

Turnover is not an indication of a wage problems
Number of vacancies is not an indicator of recruitment problems

As I've said multiple times almost all industries and sectors have turnover of staff and there are at any one time about 750,000 vacancies that need filling.

GreatApe

Tromking wrote: »

If you don't think there is a problem with this. Fair enough.

I don't know if there is or there isn't

I know a few of the things posted are easily voidable as irrelevant

Pole turnover and number of infilled vacancies. For that to be proof you would need to compare it to other sectors. For instance is turnover of nurses better or worse than retail (retail is the coi tries biggest employer about 3 million people). Are unfilled vacancies worse etc


Also if there is a problem it's likely to be a small one. The media and the population generally blows up a problem to multiple tomes it's actual size.

What I do have a problem with is the lack of thinking when proposing solutions
Things like tax corporations more. In effect that is saying tax private sector workers pensions more to increase public sector workers pensions and wages. How is that fair?

Or the foreign aid budget dip into that. Seems the forigb aid budget is a solutions to every single problem and issue we have and of its a solution to everything its more likely that its a solution to nothing.

Tromking

GreatApe wrote: »

Can you name one industry where people aren't continuously leaving?

Turnover is not an indication of a wage problems
Number of vacancies is not an indicator of recruitment problems

As I've said multiple times almost all industries and sectors have turnover of staff and there are at any one time about 750,000 vacancies that need filling.

People leave private sector, private sector problem and not the Governments.
People leave public sector, Governments problem and due to the nature of some of the tasks they perform, the public/taxpayers problem too.