Public Sector Pay Restraint Ending?

Herzlos

GreatApe wrote: »

Can you name one industry where people aren't continuously leaving?

Can you name an industry where more people are leaving than joining, that doesn't claim it's a problem?

People will leave jobs, that's a given. It's the rate of leaving:joining that's the concern, and the NHS is currently in a position where more are leaving than starting, and apparently EU applications (for training?) are down 96%.

economic

GreatApe wrote: »

I don't know if there is or there isn't

I know a few of the things posted are easily voidable as irrelevant

Pole turnover and number of infilled vacancies. For that to be proof you would need to compare it to other sectors. For instance is turnover of nurses better or worse than retail (retail is the coi tries biggest employer about 3 million people). Are unfilled vacancies worse etc


Also if there is a problem it's likely to be a small one. The media and the population generally blows up a problem to multiple tomes it's actual size.

What I do have a problem with is the lack of thinking when proposing solutions
Things like tax corporations more. In effect that is saying tax private sector workers pensions more to increase public sector workers pensions and wages. How is that fair?

Or the foreign aid budget dip into that. Seems the forigb aid budget is a solutions to every single problem and issue we have and of its a solution to everything its more likely that its a solution to nothing.

it seems there are way too many socialists then i realised. pretty scary actually.

GreatApe

Tromking wrote: »

People leave private sector, private sector problem and not the Governments.
People leave public sector, Governments problem and due to the nature of some of the tasks they perform, the public/taxpayers problem too.

You miss the point entirely

Let's take people leaving nursing. You can just say people are leaving so it's a problem because some number of people will always leave.

What you could do is look at 20 different professions and say OK in teaching x percent leave in each given year. In construction y percent leave each year. On retail z percent leave each year. Etc etc. When you have the rate for a few dozen jobs you can then say ahh look nurses are leaving at 5x the rate of all the others average this is clearly something wrong here.

Have you done that?
No you have just said nurses leave nursing. Well that is irrelevant without more data

Likewise. Saying there are x number of nursing posts. You need to look at the number of vacancies for a range of jobs to compare what is normal and what is abnormal. Just saying there are unfilled nursing jobs is meaningless.


If someone did post the actual data on retention and vacancy rates we can all have a look and discuss it. But for now its easy to say we don't know because well we don't know.

My guess is the retention rate and vacancies is not abnormal as if there were it would be clear from the service and personally I receive a good service when I visit the GP or hospital not just sufficient but good.

scd3scd4

GreatApe wrote: »

Like I have said multiple times I do not think there is a problem. If it exists at all its likely a very small problem.


What you think and what the research from the bodies that matter are indeed very different you are right.

Just because the media says something doesnt make it valid or true.
Just because a politician says something doesn't make of valid or true.


How would you know what is the truth or not?

As I have also said multiple tomes. You can not look at staff turnover or vacancy numbers for evidence of a problem. Using that metric there is a problem in all industry and sectors.

Of course you can. Do you think people leave well paid jobs with good morale and T&C. You do indeed keep saying the same rubbish.

GreatApe

Herzlos wrote: »

Can you name an industry where more people are leaving than joining, that doesn't claim it's a problem?

People will leave jobs, that's a given. It's the rate of leaving:joining that's the concern, and the NHS is currently in a position where more are leaving than starting, and apparently EU applications (for training?) are down 96%.

Well yes provide the data and we can think it through

How many nurses were there 1/3/5 year ago vs today

Also if there is a shortage can you tell me which of these would be most effective? Advertising or encouraging kids to go into nursing schools or paying nurses 2% more?

Red-Squirrel_2

GreatApe wrote: »

The public sector already pays 3% more than the private sector for an equivalently educated person and public sector workers enjoy more protections and security.

Nurses and other health professionals can earn more in the private sector. Much more.

GreatApe

Red-Squirrel wrote: »

Nurses and other health professionals can earn more in the private sector. Much more.

Then they should go do that. How many nurses and other health professionals switching from the NHS to whatever it is you think they can do to earn more do you think it would take to saturated the other sector?

Edit: this reminds me of this person I used to know. He was about 50 at the time and used to spend almost every day boasting about how Much more money he could make elsewhere literally 2x as much. He got made redundant just before I left and last I heard he had become an unemployed alcoholic.

scd3scd4

Can you name one industry where people aren't continuously leaving?

I have 20 years service in the oil game and that's not uncommon but average. I work with people who have 25 and 30. No one leaves and any job has dozens of applications without even advertising. People will try and get their sons or in-laws interviews even starting on the lower grades. People retire, die.......or are promoted.


Hows that do ya.

GreatApe

scd3scd4 wrote: »

Can you name one industry where people aren't continuously leaving?

I have 20 years service in the oil game and that's not uncommon but average. I work with people who have 25 and 30. No one leaves and any job has dozens of application without even advertising. People will try and get their sons or in-laws interviews even starting on the lower grades. People retire, die.......or are promoted.


How that do ya.

Well done. Assuming it is correct it is a rarity.

Now do it for every industry and let's figure out the typical vacancy rate and retention rate and compare it to the NHS. Or even easier just look at the number of nurses today vs 1/3/5 years ago. If there is truly a problem the figure must be going down. Is it?

GreatApe

scd3scd4 wrote: »

I don't work for you pal. Do your own research. You asked a question and I answered it. What's with the assuming? Is that how you deflex every reply you don't like?


What do you call wards under staffed by their own standards and guideline??


Well??

You could be wrong I assume you don't work in the HR department and don't know the actual turnover you are probably just guessing on the few dozen or so people around you which is a small sample set.

Also I assume you are talking about a specific role or part of 'the oil industry'
It would be like me looking at just GP pay and retention which is high and inferring that as 'the heath industry. It might be better to look at the oil industry in its whole which might be worse than your assumption of no one ever leaves. Even if true its not the norm but an outlier.



I don't know if wards are understaffed. If they are they need to recruit more people. Also the scale of the problem needs to be noted. Does a ward have 1% fewer staff than it needs or 10% or 30%? Clearly there is a big difference between 1% and 30% so just saying understaffed is too little information

Also if it is true. How do you get more staff? Is it just plain blunt wages. Can a 2% increase in wages cover the problems and keep more staff and encourage new ones to join? For physics teachers they offer a bonus on the first year as so few physicists want to go into teaching. Maybe this type of bonus scheme would be more effective. Maybe guising more kids at 17-18 into nursing would be more effective. If there is a big problem I don't see it being solves by 1-2% pay increases. It seems a political posturing to me not a real problem that is trying to be addressed by real measures.