Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

Ballard

Sapphire wrote: »

If you love the EU so much, why don't you just move to one of the countries that belongs to it? From the sound of it, you will be much happier there than in Britain.

Congratulations. It's been several pages since someone put this utterly idiotic comment.

You really don't get it do you? Some people think that we are better off inside the EU and others think that we will thrive outside. I completely understand that. It doesn't mean that everyone who voted to remain wants to live elsewhere. We just think that the UK would have been better off in a variety of ways by staying.

BobQ

Sapphire wrote: »

Democratic EU? Don't make me laugh. It is patently obvious that the EU is not democratic and in fact is becoming less and less democratic by the day – even the propaganda and brainwashing cannot disguise that fact.

You seem to be sufferring from the not invented here syndrome. EU democracy is not the same as UK democracy but then the EU is a pan-national organisation. Similarly UK democracy is not the same as French or German democracy. But that does not make it wrong, just different.

In the EU you still have national government which (rightly or as you would have it wrongly) has given EU bodies certain rights of governance. The Commission is analogous to our civil service and run by Commissioners appointed by national governments. The Parliament is elected. You may see this as undemocratic but that does not make it wrong. Many of our national institutions are run by political appointees in various quangos.

I can understand why you think that the EU is less democratic than national governments but is the UK really in a position to lecture the EU on this when our second chamber is composed of a motley crew of unelected bishops, jdges, hereditary peers, minor celebrities, political appointees and failed politicians? I think not.

But the point is just because it is different does not make it undemocrratic.

.............

I won't discuss this any more. No point doing so with the ignorant who don't want to understand and only wish to spread their own propaganda.

If you love the EU so much, why don't you just move to one of the countries that belongs to it? From the sound of it, you will be much happier there than in Britain.

I may have missed your explanation earlier, but just saying that the EU is undemocratic is not an argument.

The above was not addressed to me but I was born in the UK and see no reason why I should have to accept everything my Government says. I too find aspects of the EU governance odd and unhelpful but there is no right or wrong way to run an international body its governance is a matter of consensus of the participants.After Brexit we will still need to cooperate with supranational bodies and accept their processes may not meet our expectations.

gfplux

always_sunny wrote: »

It doesn't matter even if the poll says 100% want to remain.
There's no turning back, Brexit of some sort will need to happen, even if that's going to be a Norway style membership.

I don't agree. It still might not happen. I live in hope that the Government, any government will see this is both bad for them (the Government) and less important to the politicians but bad for the ordinary citizens of Britain.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

gfplux wrote: »

I don't agree. It still might not happen. I live in hope that the Government, any government will see this is both bad for them (the Government) and less important to the politicians but bad for the ordinary citizens of Britain.

You are as entitled to your opinion as anybody else is, even living outwith the UK as you do.
But to suggest that Brexit will not happen is perhaps delusional and at best fanciful because not only has the process and indeed negotiation begun, but the UK has begun to implement legal and constitutional separation too.
For a few examples, the repeal bill has been put forward in parliament; we have announced our intention to withdraw from the common fisheries policy; and even Michel Barnier says "the clock is ticking".

Oh and for every vision of Brexit being bad there is at least an equal argument that Brexit will prove beneficial to the UK.

BobQ

Ballard wrote: »

Congratulations. It's been several pages since someone put this utterly idiotic comment.

You really don't get it do you? Some people think that we are better off inside the EU and others think that we will thrive outside. I completely understand that. It doesn't mean that everyone who voted to remain wants to live elsewhere. We just think that the UK would have been better off in a variety of ways by staying.

I agree. Unfortunately some who believe they are right are incapable of seeing the opposite point of view. Instead they adopt the mantra of "we won, so shut up or clear off".

cogito

BobQ wrote: »

In the EU you still have national government which (rightly or as you would have it wrongly) has given EU bodies certain rights of governance. The Commission is analogous to our civil service and run by Commissioners appointed by national governments. The Parliament is elected.

Imagine that the Civil Service is empowered to legislate. Imagine that the UK Parliament has no power to propose legislation but can only discuss or suggest amendments to the Civil Service proposals which the Civil Service is then free to accept or reject.

That is the relationship between the Commission and the Parliament. Do you think that is democratic? Neither do I.

Rinoa

BobQ wrote: »

Exactly. As an example I read that UK imports of French cheese have dropped by 25% since Brexit vote. Its still on the shelves, but those on a tight budget will leave it there. And that is without any import tariffs or costs. It may be a temporary thing, but logic says that as inflation further erodes wages buying French cheese will not be so popular.

According to the dairy industry's own figures cheese imports for the period Jan-March 2016 were 38,028 tonnes compared with Jan-March 2017 38201 tonnes. That's an actual increase albeit small.

Plus butter imports increased by 22%. All this despite having the equivalent of a 15% tariff imposed on them. Makes me wonder if EU trade post Brexit will suffer that much.

https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/market-information/processing-trade/imports-exports/uk-dairy-imports/#.WWn6IojyuUk

BobQ

gfplux wrote: »

I don't agree. It still might not happen. I live in hope that the Government, any government will see this is both bad for them (the Government) and less important to the politicians but bad for the ordinary citizens of Britain.

You make an interesting point. We can all comment on the basis of limited information, but what should the Government do if after many man years of effort they conclude Brexit is too difficult or too costly or too damaging?

My view is that they will carry on regardless as otherwise it will split the governing party and maybe the opposition. But what I think we are seeing now are the early signs of a government watering down its aspirations when faced with the practicalities of Brexit. How the right will react to a Brexit based on a Norwegian model who knows?

Blair said something this morning about the EU changing its views on FoM. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40615119. Claiming this was not speculation but based on discussions.

BobQ

Rinoa wrote: »

According to the dairy industry's own figures cheese imports for the period Jan-March 2016 were 38,028 tonnes compared with Jan-March 2017 38201 tonnes. That's an actual increase albeit small.

Plus butter imports increased by 22%. All this despite having the equivalent of a 15% tariff imposed on them. Makes me wonder if EU trade post Brexit will suffer that much.

https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/market-information/processing-trade/imports-exports/uk-dairy-imports/#.WWn6IojyuUk

Thank you for providing a source for my statistic. As I said imports of French cheese are 25% down which this confirms.

Its reassuring that imports of cheddar, edam and gouda are up. Maybe people are just buying cheaper cheese.:)

You may be right that EU imports will not suffer but surely if we continue to have more inflation, low productivity, low wage growth then overall people will not be able to afford more expensive imported cheese and the Brie and Camembert will stay on the shelf?

gfplux

Sapphire wrote: »

And boy, don't my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and even further back know about that German invasion and others. The stories of their experiences would make your hair stand on end – I know the human spirit is resilient and we are adaptable as a species, but I really don't think I would have had the strength and guts to survive what they went through. I wish the ignoramus spouting off about 'fascism' in the UK could experience what they did – I really do. Having that happen, even for a week or so, would soon cure him and others like him of their brainwashed idiocy. :cool:

That is why most of the 27 EU believe in the EU rather more that Britain ever has.