Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

mayonnaise

Sapphire wrote: »

And boy, don't my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and even further back know about that German invasion and others. The stories of their experiences would make your hair stand on end – I know the human spirit is resilient and we are adaptable as a species, but I really don't think I would have had the strength and guts to survive what they went through. I wish the ignoramus spouting off about 'fascism' in the UK could experience what they did – I really do. Having that happen, even for a week or so, would soon cure him and others like him of their brainwashed idiocy. :cool:

I'm sure your family's experience was a horrible one, but your irrational hate and fear for anything German - or the democratic EU - is very unhealthy.
Many millions have suffered under the Nazis during WW2.
They and their descendants have moved on. While not forgetting the horrors of the past, they chose not to perpetuate the hate. Maybe it's time you did the same.

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

Are you suggesting that EU exports to the UK have increased due to the fall in the £? Sure its easier for the EU to export but can we still afford to buy these products?

The value of exports in £ terms might well remain high. What's unknown is the actual volume of goods. Lower volume of sales = lower bottom line profitability. Over time will have an impact.

always_sunny

Thrugelmir wrote: »

There's some very authoritive books on the subject. If one takes the trouble to seek them out. The reality is literally just over the Channel. Spend a few days there and you'll realise what a fine line is. Between success and failure.

That's part of the problem. There're indeed books but [I assume] school textbooks here are edited to picture a different story.

A while back I was over the Channel with some friends and oddly enough my English friend was thought a slightly different reality in school and was adamant about it too.

Sadly it is not just my friend but I suspect many in the UK had these ideas fed to them, look at some articles about the EU and Brexit and there're often tons of comments with references to WWII and how without the UK the continent would be speaking German, etc.

These are ultimately the same people that were empowered to vote on the referendum.

vivatifosi

always_sunny wrote: »

That's part of the problem. There're indeed books but [I assume] school textbooks here are edited to picture a different story.

A while back I was over the Channel with some friends and oddly enough my English friend was thought a slightly different reality in school and was adamant about it too.

Sadly it is not just my friend but I suspect many in the UK had these ideas fed to them, look at some articles about the EU and Brexit and there're often tons of comments with references to WWII and how without the UK the continent would be speaking German, etc.

These are ultimately the same people that were empowered to vote on the referendum.

I don't think the point about books is a fair one. I work in a public library. The textbooks we have about both world wars and aimed at both children and adults are laden with facts, not rhetoric.

If there's a problem with how WW 2 is presented, this does not come from textbooks and is more likely to come from news media or social media.

Thrugelmir

always_sunny wrote: »

That's part of the problem. There're indeed books but [I assume] school textbooks here are edited to picture a different story.

No different to ratings for films. The reality of war in it's entirety is numbing. Exposing children to the full horrors achieves very little without a broader context.

Sapphire

mayonnaise wrote: »

the democratic EU.

Many millions have suffered under the Nazis during WW2.
They and their descendants have moved on.

Democratic EU? Don't make me laugh. It is patently obvious that the EU is not democratic and in fact is becoming less and less democratic by the day – even the propaganda and brainwashing cannot disguise that fact.

What gives you the right to spout forth with a casual 'They and their descendants have moved on'? How would you know? Only those who have had such experiences, directly or indirectly through their families, have the right to pronounce their views on this subject. They may indeed have tried to put their memories aside (to avoid being driven mad), but they have not forgotten the lessons taught to them by their experiences, nor will those who inherit their memories. Just as well, because what happened to them over decades, even centuries, could so easily happen again.

I won't discuss this any more. No point doing so with the ignorant who don't want to understand and only wish to spread their own propaganda.

If you love the EU so much, why don't you just move to one of the countries that belongs to it? From the sound of it, you will be much happier there than in Britain.

BobQ

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The value of exports in £ terms might well remain high. What's unknown is the actual volume of goods. Lower volume of sales = lower bottom line profitability. Over time will have an impact.

Exactly. As an example I read that UK imports of French cheese have dropped by 25% since Brexit vote. Its still on the shelves, but those on a tight budget will leave it there. And that is without any import tariffs or costs. It may be a temporary thing, but logic says that as inflation further erodes wages buying French cheese will not be so popular.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

An interesting piece in The Spectator today on a German's view of Brexit from Markus Krall who is widely-respected across Germany and indeed Europe.

The EU presents itself as a champion of free trade, especially when its leaders are attacking Donald Trump, yet it does all it can to slow down, complicate and generally frustrate a free trade deal with the UK, the world’s fifth-largest economy. It talks as if keeping open borders with Britain is a great gift from the EU, rather than, of course, an arrangement of mutual benefit to consumers of all countries. Would the EU dare to enter trade negotiations in Washington, Tokyo or Beijing and demand payments for allowing access to EU markets? Why does it take this approach with Britain?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/a-view-from-germany/

Ballard

Sapphire wrote: »

And boy, don't my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and even further back know about that German invasion and others. The stories of their experiences would make your hair stand on end – I know the human spirit is resilient and we are adaptable as a species, but I really don't think I would have had the strength and guts to survive what they went through. I wish the ignoramus spouting off about 'fascism' in the UK could experience what they did – I really do. Having that happen, even for a week or so, would soon cure him and others like him of their brainwashed idiocy. :cool:

What the Nazis did was absolutely horrendous and, having previously dated a Jewish girl for around five years, I know some stories first hand. Her father turned 90 last weekend and, as an Ashkenazi Jew, grew up in Eastern Europe. He never spoke to me of his experiences but my girlfriend did occasionally mention his past. For example, he lived for some time in a forest where they would have to did a hole to sleep in every night. He also lost a large number of his relatives to the gas chambers.

Despite all of that I never heard any of his family speak badly of Germans because they could differentiate between Nazi Germany and present day Germany.

My parents were toddlers during the second world war so wouldn't have seen the true horrors of that period so it's not really comparable to the utter awfulness that my ex's parents suffered but they hold no grudges to Germans. They voted to leave the EU but not because they thought that the Germans were going to take over.

I suppose that everyone has a choice. You can try to put unimaginably dreadful things like this behind you and move on or you can hold a grudge and blame the descendants of those who supported the Nazis. I can't be sure how I would react had I experienced it but I take strength from my ex's family who had the fortitude to move on and start a new life without letting their anger eat them.

antrobus

always_sunny wrote: »

In fairness, I think the UK has a different version of WWII history books!

A different version to whom?

History is subject to interpretation. When I looked at that link to the Independent story, there was a long comment that banged on about the Zionist Conspiracy and Churchill.

But certain things are indisputable facts. Such as the Nazi's intention to create their very own single European state. Why do you think they invaded Poland?:)