Feel guilty I couldn't provide everything for my (immigrant from USA) spouse

McAnniee

Hi,

I've posted another thread about the divorce process but this is separate from that one.

Spouse and I are now splitting up after 17 years. We met online long distance (USA/UK); Spouse was in USA University at the time and I was about to start Distance Learning (Open University) studies while taking an entry level job.

Subsequently Fiance moved here to the UK, I had to fill in the immigration paperwork and pledge financial support for 6 months-1 year as they couldn't legally work here pending a Permanent Residence (PR) subject to Marriage which we did. I suppressed any "non-essential" expenditure during this time (food, medical essentials...) to make everything above board.

Once the Permanent Residence was obtained Spouse earnestly set out to find jobs but was restricted to miniumum-wage factory/warehouse type jobs based on being "Foreign" (I witnessed racism first hand) lack of cultural awareness or social skills applicable to the UK, etc. The USA and UK are truly divided by a common language despite that PR allows working the same as a "Native" Brit (sample comment: We don't want any Americans here!) ! This went on for many years, 10 or so.

I felt horribly guilty the whole time, like I should be able to provide for them so that they won't have to work at all, because after all they are my "guest" here in the UK. Every time Spouse came home with a tale of some crappy unreasonable thing their Boss had said, I thought they wouldn't have to go through this **** at all if only I could earn enough to provide for both of us so they wouldn't have to work.

At what point, or in what circs, are you "responsible" for providing for a (permanent) partner, rather than having equal inputs to the finances?

I'm really struggling with this currently, I feel like the UK visa system set up this situation in a way. But the feeling of being "responsible" for minimising others' suffering goes deeper than that.

* Yes, I have spoken to a therapist about this! Her verdict was each individual is sovereign and I don't have any responsibility or obligation to any other 'sovereign' individual, but my gut is strongly against that.

Hermia

I think it is right to support a spouse whilst they are going through the visa process/learning the language/getting used to a new country/whatever. After that I don't think there is any obligation unless you lured them over here promising that (e.g. a mail order bride situation!). I have a lot of immigrants/emmigrants amongst my friends/family and none expected to be kept for ever.

Your spouse had an obligation, like we all do, to try and make their situation better too. I agree with your therapist BTW. I have worked with many Americans and have never noticed any particular problem for them over here. It certainly is a lot easier for them than it is for other immigrants. Your spouse could have taught themselves about British social and cultural customs if that was the issue. I have a Somali refugee friend who managed that in one year despite only knowing basic English. He was quoting Blackadder and PG Wodehouse by the end!

How did your spouse get on back home? People who constantly complain about the boss and claim everyone is against them are often like that in all situations. Do you know whether your spouse was an optimistic go-getter back home?

justme111

Of course no matter what we say here we are not going to change your mind and you will keep feeling what you have been feeling before.
According to statistics non native population of the UK is about 15% and most accents dare I say are less welcomed than American. Those people study here , develop careers and earn money. Somehow millions are achieving it so it must be your ex's issue

McAnniee

Hermia wrote: »

I think it is right to support a spouse whilst they are going through the visa process/learning the language/getting used to a new country/whatever. After that I don't think there is any obligation unless you lured them over here promising that (e.g. a mail order bride situation!). I have a lot of immigrants/emmigrants amongst my friends/family and none expected to be kept for ever.

Your spouse had an obligation, like we all do, to try and make their situation better too. I agree with your therapist BTW. I have worked with many Americans and have never noticed any particular problem for them over here. It certainly is a lot easier for them than it is for other immigrants. Your spouse could have taught themselves about British social and cultural customs if that was the issue. I have a Somali refugee friend who managed that in one year despite only knowing basic English. He was quoting Blackadder and PG Wodehouse by the end!

How did your spouse get on back home? People who constantly complain about the boss and claim everyone is against them are often like that in all situations. Do you know whether your spouse was an optimistic go-getter back home?

There was no "luring" etc - It was all fully discussed and I definitely didn't promise a guaranteed job in the UK or a mail order bride setup or anything like that! :beer: It was a 100% genuine relationship that just happened to cross international borders. I was already working (albeit in a Junior role at that time) here in the UK and the visa situation was slightly more favourable in our circumstances so we decided to set up here.

I think it was just a basic lack of integration in general. It becomes a bit of a get-out after a while that "I'm American" [or whatever] "so I don't know how this particular British social situation works so you have to deal with it" or something like that., Not to mention I'm very much the more extrovert of the 2 of us.

Spouse didn't have many jobs back home prior to moving here as they were quite young and in Uni, but from what I can gather it was a similar situation: "Boss asked this BUT" etc. But the understanding was those jobs were just temporary pending a visa to move to the UK so it was perhaps understandable that they were very low-level jobs so it's a situation where the supervisor has been there 3 months longer than you and earns 10p/hour more than you, or such like.

But then similar low-level jobs are the only thing you can get here in the UK despite now having a degree, because of CVs being discarded with experience that interviewers "don't understand" (e.g. what does summa !!! laude mean? It's Latin? Throw it in the bin as they're obviously too stuck-up for this job, etc,)

McAnniee

justme111 wrote: »

Of course no matter what we say here we are not going to change your mind and you will keep feeling what you have been feeling before.
According to statistics non native population of the UK is about 15% and most accents dare I say are less welcomed than American. Those people study here , develop careers and earn money. Somehow millions are achieving it so it must be your ex's issue

Thanks, I am hoping someone can change my mind as I have a pretty negative point of view at this moment and feel like I must be missing something... Agreed there are many non-native immigrants here who are doing well, but then I keep encountering people like the woman who was a Senior Nurse (Ward Sister or something equivalent?) in an Eastern European country, moved here to the UK and could 'only' get a job as a junior sales assistant in a general retail shop!

('only' is in quotes because I don't disrespect that job at all, I was doing the same job as her and that's how we met, but I'd have thought that is a massive step down for a Senior Nurse?)

Hermia

McAnniee wrote: »

I think it was just a basic lack of integration in general. It becomes a bit of a get-out after a while that "I'm American" [or whatever] "so I don't know how this particular British social situation works so you have to deal with it" or something like that., Not to mention I'm very much the more extrovert of the 2 of us.

Spouse didn't have many jobs back home prior to moving here as they were quite young and in Uni, but from what I can gather it was a similar situation: "Boss asked this BUT" etc. But the understanding was those jobs were just temporary pending a visa to move to the UK so it was perhaps understandable that they were very low-level jobs so it's a situation where the supervisor has been there 3 months longer than you and earns 10p/hour more than you, or such like.

TBH, it really does sound like an issue with your spouse's personality. I have worked abroad (in the USA in fact) and really worked hard to try and learn about the culture. Yes, I met some anti-British idiots, but you are never going to be liked by everyone you meet. And American and British culture is not so different that it is incomprehensible. I have worked with a few Americans and they occasionally misunderstood words/expressions and had to get used to the sense of humour, but they were perfectly able to function. Lots of people do rubbish temporary jobs when young, but still try and approach them with a positive attitude.

Okay, looking back maybe it would have been best if you had pushed your spouse to integrate a bit more, but what's done is done. None of us is perfect. It was still up to them to make the effort. After all there was no guarantee you would always be there to help them out. BTW, did your spouse seriously expect to sit on their bum for the rest of their life?

justme111

Of course. She still stays here though so on the balance it must be better than back home?
People start from 0 in their own countries when they grow up so both that Polish woman and your ex could have done the same here and got local experience and diplomas.

Hermia

McAnniee wrote: »

Thanks, I am hoping someone can change my mind as I have a pretty negative point of view at this moment and feel like I must be missing something... Agreed there are many non-native immigrants here who are doing well, but then I keep encountering people like the woman who was a Senior Nurse (Ward Sister or something equivalent?) in an Eastern European country, moved here to the UK and could 'only' get a job as a junior sales assistant in a general retail shop!

But that is the danger of moving abroad. Maybe your qualifications don't quite translate into the local ones. Maybe the culture is so different in a profession that retraining is needed. Maybe there is an excess of people going for those jobs. Maybe the person's English is not perfect and it is a job where perfect communication is needed. Maybe the job application process is so different in their country that they don't do well on the forms. If you go abroad you have to assume you will always be less attractive than local applicants unless there is something particularly useful about having a foreigner working there. You really have to work harder than the locals to prove your worth.

Did your spouse never do anything to improve their situation? They were here a long time could they not do some evening classes or something that would have allowed them to move into a new field?

McAnniee

justme111 wrote: »

Of course. She still stays here though so on the balance it must be better than back home?
People start from 0 in their own countries when they grow up so both that Polish woman and your ex could have done the same here and got local experience and diplomas.

What do you mean, that immigrating to another country you (generic you) should start again from 0 regardless of any previous experience? Sorry if I've misunderstood that. (If you really think that is the case - the 25 or whatever year old immigrant with experience would then be up against the 18 year old "school leavers" with no experience for those types of jobs, and wouldn't get them because they are "overqualified"!)

Part of the issue I think is although having a degree or comparable qualification (Nursing Diploma (?) for example) the person from abroad obviously won't have "5 GCSEs" or whatever, because GSCEs aren't a thing in the country they came from, despite having a higher qualification that subsumes the GCSE knowledge. (but many HR information systems, and indeed HR Managers when you meet them in person, seem very tickbox-driven and if you don't have e.g. 5 A-C grade GCSEs, you're disregarded!)

Hermia

McAnniee wrote: »

What do you mean, that immigrating to another country you (generic you) should start again from 0 regardless of any previous experience? Sorry if I've misunderstood that. (If you really think that is the case - the 25 or whatever year old immigrant with experience would then be up against the 18 year old "school leavers" with no experience for those types of jobs, and wouldn't get them because they are "overqualified"!)

Part of the issue I think is although having a degree or comparable qualification (Nursing Diploma (?) for example) the person from abroad obviously won't have "5 GCSEs" or whatever, because GSCEs aren't a thing in the country they came from, despite having a higher qualification that subsumes the GCSE knowledge. (but many HR information systems, and indeed HR Managers when you meet them in person, seem very tickbox-driven and if you don't have e.g. 5 A-C grade GCSEs, you're disregarded!)

I am sure there is some method of getting proof of your qualifications. I am sure an old colleague of mine managed to get an organisation to certify that her exams were equivalent to A-levels or something like that.

Person_one

McAnniee wrote: »

Thanks, I am hoping someone can change my mind as I have a pretty negative point of view at this moment and feel like I must be missing something... Agreed there are many non-native immigrants here who are doing well, but then I keep encountering people like the woman who was a Senior Nurse (Ward Sister or something equivalent?) in an Eastern European country, moved here to the UK and could 'only' get a job as a junior sales assistant in a general retail shop!

('only' is in quotes because I don't disrespect that job at all, I was doing the same job as her and that's how we met, but I'd have thought that is a massive step down for a Senior Nurse?)

There are loads of Eastern European nurses working in British hospitals. Absolutely loads.

I used to have an American boss, go to the City of London to witness first hand lots of Americans working in the UK. I think your husband was making excuses I'm afraid.