Electric cars

zeupater

almillar wrote: »

... Most Zoes you see on the road will have a battery lease. But you can buy it without the lease. It'll cost you ~£5k extra, which is why so many new buyers don't like it, leaving used buyers with very few to fight over. It's known as the 'i' model ...

Hi

As previously advised, announced on cost for battery ownership in Germany throughout the ZE50 range is €8090 (~£7300) ....

All cost comparisons (purchase or lease) between EVs should be on the same basis, therefore either a total lease cost (including batteries) or a total purchase cost (including batteries).

Anyway, whilst on the subject ... with the increasing provision of charge points, what are the chances of someone offering an all inclusive vehicle lease option hitting the market soon - something along the lines of 3 years/60k miles/all servicing/all electricity (nominated provider) to provide a 3 year fixed cost monthly motoring budget!? ...

HTH
Z

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

Certainly charging infrastructure is driving increased range now - or, rather, lack thereof. But I think we'll settle on about 200 miles as being a realistic minimum, once the infrastructure's in place.

Remember, thinking globally, the UK has unusually short journeys as a norm, because everything's so close together here - and the cars that need to be moved from ICEV to EV to make much of a dent on emissions are the high-mileage ones, not the low-mileage ones.

I'm sure there are plenty of drivers in plenty of countries who could get away with a <50 mile EV for day to day use now, and even more if chargers were everywhere.


There's no massive design cost to a lower range budget EV - just fit the same battery block with less cells. There will be plenty of customers happy to save £2k on the car if it's got a smaller range.

AdrianC

almillar wrote: »

So you want Tesla, specifically, to make a smaller car. They're American, that's their home market, and that explains the shapes of car we get.

^ This, with bells on.

A Model 3 is a small car in the US. The Model S and X aren't particularly huge by their standards, either.

By comparison - Ford sell the Fiesta, but primarily as a "Look, we hug bunnies!" citycar novelty. It's a chunk longer than it is here, because it has a boot on it. They don't sell anything Focus-sized any more. The next size up of car they sell is the Fusion, which is Mondeo-sized. Then there's the Taurus above that. They are, of course, moving away from "car-cars" to SUVs - because that's what sells in shedloads. The "car-car" market there is dead, which is why the headlines about how the Model 3 is a massive runaway success can get away with it - they ignore SUVs. But we've been there before...
As far as SUVs go, they sell the same EcoSport as we get here, the Escape is pretty much the Kuga, and the Edge is the same as here. Then there's three more ever-larger above that - Flex, Explorer, Expedition - and that's MAHOOSIVE.

You want Fiesta- and Focus-sized EVs, they're coming from the Far East and from Europe. They ain't coming from the US.

DrEskimo

AdrianC wrote: »

Certainly charging infrastructure is driving increased range now - or, rather, lack thereof. But I think we'll settle on about 200 miles as being a realistic minimum, once the infrastructure's in place.

I tend to agree, but I still wonder if the magic '200miles' is more psychological than evidence based...

almillar wrote: »

I'm not sure about backwards, but I don't think Superminis will go above 50kWh (a solid 200 miles). Maybe someone will do 60kWh, but it'll cost more and be heavier and steal space.

The only other advantage to a larger battery is the ability to software lock the additional capacity so that any degradation over the years is 'hidden' to the end user.

Similarly, peak charge rate is a direct function of State of Charge (SoC) (and temperature...), which means if you have a larger capacity battery, you could charge to 200miles at much faster rates.

Im finding this with my Zoe. Whilst initially I was keeping it up and around 80-90%, which gives me over 160miles of range. However, since I rarely do over 100miles, I now keep it charged to around 60%. This means I can 'top up' at rapid charges from say 40-100 miles much faster than when I was constantly doing 100-160miles.
Annoyingly my Zoe can only demand 22kW AC, so with any rapid charging DC EV, the gain in charge rate is going to be much bigger!

zeupater wrote: »

Anyway, whilst on the subject ... with the increasing provision of charge points, what are the chances of someone offering an all inclusive vehicle lease option hitting the market soon - something along the lines of 3 years/60k miles/all servicing/all electricity (nominated provider) to provide a 3 year fixed cost monthly motoring budget!? ...

This is basically what EVEZY provides. This is based on a monthly rolling contract, rather than 2/3/4years. They provide a POLAR subscription for their users, and the membership and energy costs are paid for. It will also include both POALR and Tesla Supercharging costs on the Model 3 subscriptions.

Of course, the actual monetary amount this reflects for the user will depend on how much they use public charging, or charge from home. Right now, the majority of EV drivers charge at home (possibly a skewed statistic, given most people would typically only buy a EV if they have home charging in the first place!).

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of drivers in plenty of countries who could get away with a <50 mile EV for day to day use now

So why haven't the Zoe/Leaf etc been flying off the shelves?

There's no massive design cost to a lower range budget EV - just fit the same battery block with less cells.

Sure, but you still need to design the architecture for the full-size battery pack. Which means platforms designed with EVs in mind - and platforms are expensive, long-lived things. VAG's MQB (Golf et al) platform cost so much to develop, they issued a profit warning. It's under about 30 "different cars" already, from TT to Tiguan to Ibiza to Passat. PSA's EMP1 - forthcoming 208, C3, Corsa - is designed for EVs. The platform it replaced, PF1, goes back to the 1998 launch of the 206.

DrEskimo wrote: »

The only other advantage to a larger battery is the ability to software lock the additional capacity so that any degradation over the years is 'hidden' to the end user.

All the manufacturing cost and weight, little of the user benefit until way down the ownership line.

DrEskimo

AdrianC wrote: »

So why haven't the Zoe/Leaf etc been flying off the shelves?

I would say range is an issue, but the high battery degradation of the Gen 1 Leaf, and the overwhelming majority of battery leases on the Zoe probably don't help either....

AdrianC wrote: »

All the manufacturing cost and weight, little of the user benefit until way down the ownership line.

Probably right. I just wonder if those reasons will facilitate manufacturers to keep improving battery capacity, whilst maintaining the same size/weight. Much like we saw with the 22-41kWh Zoe, and 24-30-40-62kWh Leaf.

Fast charge rates on smaller capacity batteries make little sense, as there isn't much 'area under the curve' that the battery can accept the peak rate. However increasing the capacity solves this problem. Having a 200mile range EV that can charge from 20-80% at a consistent 100 or even 150kW would be quite staggering....

AdrianC

DrEskimo wrote: »

I just wonder if those reasons will facilitate manufacturers to keep improving battery capacity, whilst maintaining the same size/weight. Much like we saw with the 22-41kWh Zoe, and 24-30-40-62kWh Leaf.

Which was down to increasing cell capacities, together with some re-packaging - and that re-packaging is what brought some of the heat-related fast-charge issues into play.

DrEskimo

AdrianC wrote: »

Which was down to increasing cell capacities, together with some re-packaging - and that re-packaging is what brought some of the heat-related fast-charge issues into play.

That was also Nissan's insistence on having only passive cooling.

The Zoe had no issues continually charging at 43kW on it's Q90 model AFAIK?

NBLondon

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of drivers in plenty of countries who could get away with a <50 mile EV for day to day use now, and even more if chargers were everywhere.

DrEskimo wrote: »

Right now, the majority of EV drivers charge at home (possibly a skewed statistic, given most people would typically only buy a EV if they have home charging in the first place!).

I agree - and that's the hurdle to get over. If you don't have an off-road parking space it becomes much more significant to think where can you charge locally, easily and regularly. It works for some with a bit of planning but it's a pain for some others.

DrEskimo wrote: »

I tend to agree, but I still wonder if the magic '200miles' is more psychological than evidence based...

It's probably stuck in people's minds as a comparison figure. A longish trip that I make regularly is from home in Sarf Lundun to family in North Kent - sometimes on the spur of the moment. It's about 72 miles one-way - so 145 - 150 round trip but when the M2 is unexpectedly closed it can approach 180. That would be doable with a full charge but becomes a bit of a worry if you didn't start with one - the options to charge at the rural end are sparse. So it would require a bit more planning.

I think your point about not always charging to 100% is interesting. Makes sense if it fits your driving profile of rarely needing the full range and also makes top-up charging quicker. If that doesn't have too much impact on battery life/performance it may become the norm for those who don't have the "plug in at home and charge overnight" option. Will battery design even evolve to match that sort of usage - which could become a selling point for a manufacturer.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

So why haven't the Zoe/Leaf etc been flying off the shelves?

Some low range EV's have sold alright, and people buy what they want not what they need.

Sure, but you still need to design the architecture for the full-size battery pack. Which means platforms designed with EVs in mind - and platforms are expensive, long-lived things.

But you'd still be designing and building the full-size battery pack version even if you didn't make the mini-pack...