Electric cars

jimbo6977

Yet the German manufacturers are moving production to lower-cost countries like Hungary and Slovakia.

Was speaking the other week to a Polish guy who works in Poland manufacturing furniture for a German company. However, so many Poles have moved to the UK that they are importing lots of Ukrainians, but, from what he understands, as a result of the Ukrainians moving en-masse to Poland, Ukrainian industry is importing loads of Belorussians.

Seems a bit of a farce to me.

AdrianC

The minor flaw in that, though, is that Ukrainians need a Schengen work permit to work in Poland. And if they're getting one, why not go to Germany?

shinytop

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almillar wrote: »

200 mile range EVs can be had for much less than that. Do keep up.

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[FONT=&quot]If you're going to quote, you should really read the context of the text you're quoting. My £40-80k comment was solely in response to a comment about how good Teslas are. £40-80k is what Teslas cost; I am aware there are cheaper EVs[/FONT]

almillar wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]Haven't you heard of the Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf? Both far below £37k. What size of car do you want? You can have a Smart EV if you want, it doesn't get much smaller than that!

Round my way, Zoes and Leafs are by far the most popular EV. Not the exception. You seem snobby about Renault, but unwilling to pay for the premium badges?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, I have heard of them and the latest models are moving in the right direction. However, I understood the Zoe is primarily based on a battery lease deal and the Leaf is a Focus-sized car. Both are still too expensive even if they are cheaper than a Tesla Model 3. I'd personally be in the market for a decent Corsa sized EV but there is also a place for Smart car sized ones. IMO ICE cars have become too big and too heavy. EVs don’t need to perpetuate this. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am not at all snobby about brand but I'll try and avoid mild sarcasm in the future; as I've already found out, it doesn't really work on this board with some posters. I’m not willing to spend £40k on any car let alone a Tesla [/FONT]

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almillar wrote: »

We're there. The premium badges aren't, and may never be, unless you want a base spec A1 EV. You can have a new Zoe ZE40 fo that right now. About to be replaced, but new model will start more expensive.

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[FONT=&quot]What EV car that I can buy now is £20k with real 200 mile range? [/FONT]

AdrianC

shinytop wrote: »

IMO ICE cars have become too big and too heavy. EVs don’t need to perpetuate this.

While I agree wholeheartedly about weight and size, if EVs are going to be sold in direct competition, then they do. People want to buy a car that looks and feels like what they expect a car to be. They want it to have all the safety (but without compromising the interior space too badly) and they want it to have all the kit. That's why they've got big...

Weight, though, is unavoidable with EVs. No matter how much weight you save in the car without battery pack, a battery pack is a HEAVY thing if you want a decent range. Basic physics says it's simply impossible for it not to be. A much heavier thing than an IC drivetrain - Ford's 1.0 Ecoboost engine (used all the way up to Mondeos) weighs less than 100kg.

Lightest production EV is the Renault Twizy - it can be squeezed <450kg to fit as a "light quadricycle" in countries where that makes a big difference. Yet 100kg of that is battery - and even in something that minimal, that's only a 50 mile range. The electric Smart ForTwo is nearly 200kg heavier than the <900kg petrol, giving only a range of "up to" 70 miles.

You want range? It's heavy. A Tesla Model 3 battery pack weighs nearly half as much as a complete IC Renault Clio or similar.

buglawton

jimbo6977 wrote: »

Was speaking the other week to a Polish guy who works in Poland manufacturing furniture for a German company. However, so many Poles have moved to the UK that they are importing lots of Ukrainians, but, from what he understands, as a result of the Ukrainians moving en-masse to Poland, Ukrainian industry is importing loads of Belorussians.

Seems a bit of a farce to me.

Funny, I had exactly the same type of conversation. Asked a Polish office colleague where Poland gets its workers, since it's just about the fastest grower in the EU yet I know a lot their most skilled go to Germany/UK. And learned about the > 1M legal Ukrainian workers backfilling Poland. It is a de facto proxy migration East to NW Europe. That info led me to speculate the Ukraine is being backfilled from ex-Russian Federation or even Asia.

Car_54

buglawton wrote: »

That info led me to speculate the Ukraine is being backfilled from ex-Russian Federation or even Asia.

And from the UK post-Brexit.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

Weight, though, is unavoidable with EVs. No matter how much weight you save in the car without battery pack, a battery pack is a HEAVY thing if you want a decent range.

I think this is why we're likely to see the range go backwards after a generation or so when charging infrastructure has caught up and people start to realize that they don't actually need 200+ miles real range and start looking for lighter options with 50-100 mile range.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

I think this is why we're likely to see the range go backwards after a generation or so when charging infrastructure has caught up and people start to realize that they don't actually need 200+ miles real range and start looking for lighter options with 50-100 mile range.

Certainly charging infrastructure is driving increased range now - or, rather, lack thereof. But I think we'll settle on about 200 miles as being a realistic minimum, once the infrastructure's in place.

Remember, thinking globally, the UK has unusually short journeys as a norm, because everything's so close together here - and the cars that need to be moved from ICEV to EV to make much of a dent on emissions are the high-mileage ones, not the low-mileage ones.

almillar

If you're going to quote, you should really read the context of the text you're quoting. My £40-80k comment was solely in response to a comment about how good Teslas are. £40-80k is what Teslas cost; I am aware there are cheaper EVs

Sorry about that. So you want Tesla, specifically, to make a smaller car. They're American, that's their home market, and that explains the shapes of car we get.

Yes, I have heard of them and the latest models are moving in the right direction. However, I understood the Zoe is primarily based on a battery lease deal and the Leaf is a Focus-sized car

Most Zoes you see on the road will have a battery lease. But you can buy it without the lease. It'll cost you ~£5k extra, which is why so many new buyers don't like it, leaving used buyers with very few to fight over. It's known as the 'i' model. Yes, Leaf is Focus sized. So you're after a Tesla supermini then?

Both are still too expensive even if they are cheaper than a Tesla Model 3. I'd personally be in the market for a decent Corsa sized EV but there is also a place for Smart car sized ones

OK. Well Zoe IS a Corsa sized EV, and another Corsa sized EV is, well, the Corsa EV, available soon, along with the Peugeot 208 EV. If you feel they're too expensive right now, fair enough.

IMO ICE cars have become too big and too heavy. EVs don’t need to perpetuate this.

A lot of this is to do with safety, I can't see that being pulled back. And of course you've got a battery to carry around.

What EV car that I can buy now is £20k with real 200 mile range?

Zoe ZE40 if you'll accept 180 miles. No problem in summer, a stretch, if even possible, in winter. I did 100 miles in my 22kWh Zoe, but I also did 50, quickly, in it in the winter. You'll be getting the last of teh Zoe 1 stock, and will need to look very hard for, and get a deal on, a Zoe i, to avoid battery rental. It's not that bad, and comes with benefits like a recovery service. Especially if you're low mileage.

I think this is why we're likely to see the range go backwards after a generation or so when charging infrastructure has caught up and people start to realize that they don't actually need 200+ miles real range and start looking for lighter options with 50-100 mile range.

I'm not sure about backwards, but I don't think Superminis will go above 50kWh (a solid 200 miles). Maybe someone will do 60kWh, but it'll cost more and be heavier and steal space.

NigeWick

AdrianC wrote: »

he cars that need to be moved from ICEV to EV to make much of a dent on emissions are the high-mileage ones, not the low-mileage ones.

I agree as countries like Russia, Canada, China, India and the USA are vast.

I am a bit surprised that no BEV maker has partnered with Tesla for charging.