Electric cars

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Go back and read what I actually wrote, not what you remember I wrote, please.

<slowly>
I. Did. Not. Say. It. Did.

But I've quoted you saying it almost every time, including the post to which you are now saying, you didn't say it.

If you made it all up, and are now too scared to admit it, then fine, I just wanted to check first before assuming it was just more of your nonsense. Maybe next time I should just assume without checking, that it's all nonsense.

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

I for one am very interested in fully understanding why you must obviously believe that there's an "innate technical reason why EVs can't tow'" ... note, no new words introduced, just a technical appraisal request ... maybe it would help change my thoughts on EVs ... oh, by the way, the question equally applies to Hybrids too ... :)

HTH
Z

My assumption on EV's as tow vehicles, and it is just an assumption, is that they should be great, if not better at the job.

My first love, as mentioned previously, was American muscle cars, not much horsepower (relative to engine size) but tonnes of torque, or should that be tons, to go with cubic inch engines.

Then I was introduced to diesels, injection and turbo's, again loads of torque.

So I'm a fan of torque rather than horsepower.

As I understand it, nothing can produce torque like an electric motor, and from zero rpm (so to speak), so that would suggest to me that they would be ideal for towing.

I've previously mentioned diesel electric powertrains for really heavy duty use, also supporting the assumption that electric is a suitable drivetrain solution, possibly 'more suitable' when torque is key.

I'd also add that unlike ICE's, the power and torque of an EV can be increased easily by adding more motors, whether it's two motors (one per axle) in the Tesla S & X dual models, or four motors in their semi truck, or 3 motors in their Roadster 2.

So choosing a suitable EV, possibly a model variant with more motors, for towing in the future seems not only possible, but very sensible. Perhaps the Workhorse W-15 pickup (AWD with dual motors) with a 5,000lb towing limit. [Note, whilst it has a range extender on board, it is an EV as far as motivation is concerned.]

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

But I've quoted you saying it almost every time, including the post to which you are now saying, you didn't say it.

Comprehension really isn't your strong point, is it?

silverwhistle

Comprehension really isn't your strong point, is it?

Geez. That's coming from someone who has spent pages not answering my original question which I shall repeat for your benefit:

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tesla example shows that there is no innate technical reason why EVs can't tow?"

Almillar has already given some enlightening answers. You could have said "No, but there may be issues with certain models because..."

Instead we have obfuscatory c**p which only serves to confirm my opinion, and it's only an opinion mind, that you really aren't worth listening to.

I'll leave you boys to debate amongst yourselves..

AdrianC

silverwhistle wrote: »

Geez. That's coming from someone who has spent pages not answering my original question which I shall repeat for your benefit:

Except I did answer it, right back at the start of all of this.

Clearly, as I already said to Zeupater, there was a (to my mind somewhat contrived) way of reading my answer which was clearly not intended. And if that's caused confusion, then I apologise. For clarity, your "You could have said..." is how I intended my reply to that comment to read. But, as my reply to Z above also pointed out, to infer that meaning would require the blatant truism in your comment to be denied.

Shall we all accept that we're agreeing vehemently on this, and move on with life?

Martyn1981

More good news on larger EV's, the Workhorse Step Van (not comparable to a Transit as it weighs in at a mighty 9 tonnes), is now cost comparative on price, rather than after taking running cost savings into account.

Workhorse Fleet Of Electric Delivery Trucks For UPS Cost Competitive With Conventional Trucks Without Subsidies

It’s one thing to approach a prospective customer and say, “My product costs more to begin with but will more than pay for itself over time.” It is quite another to approach a prospective customer and say, “My product costs no more than what you are buying now and will save you a ton of money over the long run.” One way gets you a “Hmm … OK, I’ll think about it.” The other gets a firm order coupled with the words, “How soon can you deliver?”

gzoom

AdrianC wrote: »

It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available.

https://youtu.be/s9k1KaoNDHw

gzoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

So I'm a fan of torque rather than horsepower.

As I understand it, nothing can produce torque like an electric motor, and from zero rpm (so to speak), so that would suggest to me that they would be ideal for towing.

I have 0% interest in towing anything, but you 100% right about the power delivery characteristics of the electric motor. They deliver power like nothing else, and the throttle response is pretty much instant - The limit is actually how quickly your brain can tell your right foot to smash it, rather than how slowly the drivetrain responds to the throttle input.


The amazing power delivery of the EVs is why I ditched my old 380bhp twinturbo inline 6 BMW for a Nissan Leaf. For providing forward motion the electric motor has the combustion engine beaten in every way, its like Cambridge United playing against Man City - actually its not, because in that situation there is still a chance United could beat City .


The biggest issues with EVs is getting enough electricity to the motors. Battery pack density/cost is falling all the time, currently my Tesla has a 75kWh pack the biggest is still only 100kWh. I would not be surprised come 2025 we are seeing 100kWh as the minimal and upto 200kWh in 'performance' variants.


I love tech so don't mind paying early adopter costs hence why I bought a Tesla, but once battery costs come down (which they are doing) it really will be a no brainer to switch to EVs for the majority.


We have seen how quickly the public are dropping diesels, the same thing will happen with petrol cars once the price it right.

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

It's certainly an interesting way of reading my reply, and absolutely not the one I intended.

I didn't directly address that, because it's clearly true. I was, instead, saying why most EVs and hybrids are not type-approved for towing.



Of course. The GTW needs to take the capabilities of the braking system into account. Yes, 750kg+ trailers are all over-run braked, but the over-run braking is still pushing the entire train forward, as it works via a spring-loaded coupling.


"Full" implies space.



I don't. Indeed, I would be denying reality to claim such.

Hi

In order ...

- "I was, instead, saying why most EVs and hybrids are not type-approved for towing." .. no, you were simply guessing on the reason, no more than that!

- "The GTW needs to take the capabilities of the braking system into account" .. agreed, that's a statement which could be straight out of a standard description of assessing towing capabilities, however the braking system in an EV or Hybrid is different, therefore the capabilities of component cooling systems and the rate of kinetic energy recovery to the batteries under higher braking forces also come into play ... whether this is significant or not comes down to both design (component & software) and the manufacturers' strategic position on their product. Historically Hybrids have been seen as energy efficient vehicles for 'ecologically minded' customers & therefore towing was likely a low homologation priority in the scheme of things, but as the technology is becoming more mainstream their position has changed as evidenced by approval on the Gen4 Prius.

"Full" implies space." ... disagree, it simply means that there is no further capacity to increase available, therefore it could equally be be related to volume, mass, charge or plenty of other examples ... a fully loaded aircraft can take off, however, there's still plenty of internal volume unused ... anyway, how would your lack of rear-end space/volume theory (ie - "It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery") stand up with Hybrids such as the Prius (under rear seat), the 7 seater Prius where it's under the centre console or the various EVs (the vast majority by type or sales volume?) where the battery pack sits totally within the wheelbase and below the passenger seating, so nowhere near the rear end of the vehicle? ...

"I don't. Indeed, I would be denying reality to claim such" ... there you go again, pure obfuscation & spin though a meaningless sequence of words ... to an effective question "Correct me if I'm wrong" regarding EVs towing, the correction & reason supplied was "It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available." ... but the content of the previous paragraph seriously question this ...

We all appreciate that you don't like the idea of EVs for some reason or other, perhaps it's simply argument for argument sake, perhaps it's vested interest, perhaps it's resistance to change or lack of understanding, however, whatever you think and no matter how much you protest, squirm, misinform, spin & utilise smoke & mirrors to divert attention, EVs are here, there's more & more of them every day, and that's the position which almost all governments are forced to take after signing-up to climate goals, so the option is simple - get used to it!

HTH
Z

Stageshoot

gzoom wrote: »

I have 0% interest in towing anything, but you 100% right about the power delivery characteristics of the electric motor. They deliver power like nothing else, and the throttle response is pretty much instant - The limit is actually how quickly your brain can tell your right foot to smash it, rather than how slowly the drivetrain responds to the throttle input.


The amazing power delivery of the EVs is why I ditched my old 380bhp twinturbo inline 6 BMW for a Nissan Leaf. For providing forward motion the electric motor has the combustion engine beaten in every way, its like Cambridge United playing against Man City - actually its not, because in that situation there is still a chance United could beat City .


The biggest issues with EVs is getting enough electricity to the motors. Battery pack density/cost is falling all the time, currently my Tesla has a 75kWh pack the biggest is still only 100kWh. I would not be surprised come 2025 we are seeing 100kWh as the minimal and upto 200kWh in 'performance' variants.


I love tech so don't mind paying early adopter costs hence why I bought a Tesla, but once battery costs come down (which they are doing) it really will be a no brainer to switch to EVs for the majority.


We have seen how quickly the public are dropping diesels, the same thing will happen with petrol cars once the price it right.

Fighting a losing Battle Gang...

Best Leave The Knuckle Draggers and Trolls to it..

Look on the bright side while they stick to ICE its subsidising your and my EV driving.

Whatever is offered will be derided by them, eventually they will try an EV and the tiny 3w light bulb will come over their head, and then they will see what they have been missing, but thats a long way off, leave them to the old choakies till then.

Drive by at 1p a mile and smile and wave