Electric cars

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

That isn't what I said, as you well know.

Your inability (or, I suspect, unwillingness, given that you have twisted my words several times now) to understand, despite several explanations by me and another poster, is not my problem.

Pure diversion.

You seem happy to argue with me, but not to answer me, so I'll amend what I said to 'less suitable', and ask again:

You said that the placement of batts in the floor and the extra weight makes EV's less suitable for towing.

Could you explain why please?

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Pure diversion.

You seem happy to argue with me, but not to answer me, so I'll amend what I said to 'less suitable', and ask again:

You said that the placement of batts in the floor and the extra weight makes EV's less suitable for towing.

Could you explain why please?

Instead of changing how you misquote me, why not go and read what I've already written, which answers your question...

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

That isn't what I said, as you well know.

Your inability (or, I suspect, unwillingness, given that you have twisted my words several times now) to understand, despite several explanations by me and another poster, is not my problem.

Hi

More spin ... "That isn't what I said", "I didn't say it was", "Which I didn't. " ... it's a wonder you can see straight enough to research what you post so that it's correct ... thinking about it, that's possibly the reason - you don't/can't - what's more, when there's a legitimate question which doesn't have a readily available source to tap, all goes quiet ....

... now, there are reasons why all EVs & Hybrids aren't homologated for towing, so what are they? ... or is it a case that ones which are most suitable are able, and it's simply a case that manufacturers have vehicles which are 'able' yet have chosen not to seek approval yet ...

Anyway, in a attempt to place the credulity of this latest anti-EV spat to where it belongs on engineering or physical capability grounds & to raise the tone of the discussion ... does anyone remember seeing this EV towing demonstration ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9k1KaoNDHw ?

HTH
Z

AdrianC

Zeu - please don't join Martin in muppetland. You're better than that. It's not as if what I actually wrote is hard to find.

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

Zeu - please don't join Martin in muppetland. You're better than that. It's not as if what I actually wrote is hard to find.

Hi

The thing is, the first articles to crop-up on a search engine often aren't the most accurate ... it's just a case of applying common-sense & filtering the rubbish before formulating a position - however, being more thorough & taking a little more care & time up-front, can save a lot of face and requirement to spin further down the line ... as evidenced by ... "It's not as if what I actually wrote is hard to find" ... I agree, it's not, I know because I tend to look - but there is a difference between the exact wording & the underlying meaning/sentiment of those words - Do Hybrids & EVs tow?, if not why not? - for this latest argument it's as simple as that!

EVs are coming & Hybrids can tow (if the manufacturer deems it preferable & cost effective to seek approval) .. if there's a need to post against either let it be on technical grounds or something else that has validity, but if it's because of an inherent resistance to change, gut feeling or even some form of vested interest, why bother ... it's probably recognised for what it is by most anyway ...

Most people posting on this thread have provided experience, some from having EVs & Hybrids, some from an engineering viewpoint, some from a purely logical viewpoint .... you may also find that there are some with plenty of experience inside the automotive industry who occasionally contribute, but mostly sit back and wince at some of the anti-EV techno-rubbish! ... I'd be far more closely aligned to this subset of information donors than those expounding loads of poorly supportable views ...

HTH
Z

Guinness-Cat

This thread makes an interesting read - although I haven't read it all. People are definitely slowly being converted!


I asked about peoples opinions when thinking of changing to Electric in 2013 and I would say there was more negativity then: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4591243


For what it's worth, I did get a leaf back then and have had 2 more since (not that they keep going wrong - just that they have all been short term PCP deals, current one bought outright second hand at the end of 2016)


Works well for me - doing around 18-20k miles per year in it mainly just charging at home. It does help having a 65 mile round trip to work and back and I'm saving a fortune in fuel :beer:

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Instead of changing how you misquote me, why not go and read what I've already written, which answers your question...

Please end the spin. I only made the mistake of unsuitable instead of less suitable because I've asked you so many times for an explanation.

[Edit - and just to be clear, no you haven't answered, you've even tried to divert down a 'are you American' route to avoid answering. Now your way of not answering is simply to claim you've already answered - no, at best you've made some faulty personal opinionated claims, but I'm looking for an explanation that supports them. M.]

So you stated:

AdrianC wrote: »

It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available.

and I keep asking why?

Why does more weight cause a problem, and why does having a battery integrated floorpan (which to my eyes looks a bit stronger than a standard floorpan) mean it's less suitable for towing?

You are happy to come back and argue, you are happy to post negative and false spin instantly after any EV article, so why won't you answer my question?

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Please end the spin. I only made the mistake of unsuitable instead of less suitable because I've asked you so many times for an explanation.

Go back and read what I actually wrote, not what you remember I wrote, please.

Why does more weight cause a problem, and why does having a battery integrated floorpan (which to my eyes looks a bit stronger than a standard floorpan) mean it's less suitable for towing?

<slowly>
I. Did. Not. Say. It. Did.

This is really not hard.

Let's look back, shall we?
Post 1008

AdrianC wrote: »

silverwhistle wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tesla example shows that there is no innate technical reason why EVs can't tow?

It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available.

Now, does that mention "suitability" at all? It does not. Does it make any sweeping generalisations about all EVs? Explicitly, it does not. It even uses the word "mostly".

Now, over to Al:
Post 1035

almillar wrote: »

The reason there aren't any towing EVs yet (pure EV) apart from Tesla, is simply priorities in a new market. It's another one of those 'edge cases'. It takes significant investment to do it, for not much reward, when they're struggling to get the things off the design table and out of the factory.
People were banging on about not buying cars without a spare wheel - it's going. Look at that massive hole they have to design into the floor of the car, and think about the consequence in an impact. With the safety they're chasing, and later the economy, carrying around a spare wheel, and all that supporting structure, just isn't worth it.
Move to EVs, and as Adrian C says, at the moment, there's more weight (it's only about one size up though, for example, the Clio sized Zoe, weights roughly what a Megane weighs), and certainly long term, the weight distribution has moved. There is nothing stopping EVs from towing, they have plenty of torque as Martin says, making them good for towing, for example. But it's just not a priority yet. Work has to be done on the chassis (or it has to be designed from the ground up) to accommodate the battery - this is new stuff! There's strengthening to be done in places to make it the same as an ICE car, offset by more modest requirements under the bonnet. Add towing into that, and you just get into design and manufacture costs, that aren't worth it, for this generation of cars at least. Replace all the non-towing, easy cars first.

And that's a very good explanation.

And back to me:
Post 1039

AdrianC wrote: »

If you didn't understand when I explained, read Al's comment just above.

Have you ever seen how a towbar is fitted? Hint - it's not just bolted to the bumper.

Post 1045

AdrianC wrote: »

Where did you make "stronger" up from? The boot floor is fuller, not stronger, leaving little space for the towbar to mount. Very few manufacturers have developed EV-specific platforms, really only Tesla (and even they used their Mercedes partnership for much of the S and X underpinnings), due to the monumental cost of development of anything remotely competitive. Every other manufacturer is moving towards sharing modular platforms for very sound reasons.

Post 1047

AdrianC wrote: »

Yes, it's a lot easier to find the space for the batteries under a largeish SUV without such a trade-off on boot space, so less need to remodel the boot floor pressings.

So, since those answers were clearly too cryptic or opaque, let's go into a bit more depth.

There are several aspects to type-approval certification for towing of a specific vehicle. There are the physical attachment points. The manufacturer's approved points MUST be used for all towbars on post-1997-registered cars that come under EC94/20. If the structure of the vehicle is changed - as it often is to make space for the battery and charging equipment without overly compromising the boot space, and the tow mounting points are moved, then new points would have to be type approved.

Let's look at what a towbar actually looks like...

That's the kit for a current-shape Auris estate.
You can, I presume, see from that what I mean by the fitting points likely to be different on a hybrid, where the boot floor is structurally different in order to incorporate the battery? That's a car on which the boot space is quite badly compromised anyway, with a much higher boot floor on the hybrid.

Then there's the maximum towing weights - and they need to be calculated, tested and approved for every mechanical combination. And, in those cases where a smaller platform is being used towards the upper end of the weight range for the suspension and braking hardware, as most hybrids and EVs based on pre-existing architectures are, then that is going to leave very little headroom for a GTW substantially above the GVW, itself already pushed as far as it can be to compensate for the higher kerb weight whilst not overly restricting the payload. Kerbweight is quoted with a 75kg driver. Add three more 75kg occupants, and you're adding 225kg to the kerbweight. But if all four are 100kg instead, you're adding 325kg.

Take an Auris hybrid estate - not exactly a vehicle unloved of taxi drivers, rarely a svelte breed themselves. Subtract the 1465kg kerb weight of a top-spec car from the 1815kg GVW, and with those four not-exactly-huge people on board, you're overweight once you put more than 25kg of luggage in the back. Not much for an airport run, is it? A lower-spec non-hybrid is a good 200kg lighter, yet will share almost all of the running gear, even before we consider the weight distribution - and we're not considering the rear axle max weight. Now consider 50kg of noseweight on the towbar as well...

But I'm really doing no more than repeating, at greater length, what's been said already. Does that answer the question you continue to ask, even though it's been answered at length? Or will you continue to misquote and misrepresent what I actually said, simply because you cannot be bothered to look back a handful of pages? BTW, I'm doing you a favour by assuming indolence rather than mendacity.

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

Go back and read what I actually wrote, not what you remember I wrote, please...
...
But I'm really doing no more than repeating ...

Hi

Absolutely more spin ...

Let's look at the above post but place the timeline in sequence ...

Silverwhistle noted ...

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tesla example shows that there is no innate technical reason why EVs can't tow?"

To which you Replied ...

"It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc, combined with the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available."

... note, this in no way addresses the point there is ' no innate technical reason why EVs can't tow', thus introducing the argument of battery volume & weight having an impact on the ability to tow, both from an engineering viewpoint (available space) & overall vehicle weight ('high kerb weight') having some form of impact ('very little spare weight capacity') for an unspecified reason ...

Having not specified a reason for your conclusion, Martyn1981 asked ...

"Why does more weight cause a problem, and why does having a battery integrated floorpan (which to my eyes looks a bit stronger than a standard floorpan) mean it's less suitable for towing? "

Obviously, that question covers your reply in a way which is open to little misinterpretation, but for clarity ...

"Why does more weight cause a problem" applies to " .. the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available." ... a reasonable interpretation being that your belief is that there's a limit to the total system weight (tower & towed) that is to be applied and that a heavier tower reduces the 'spare weight' which can be allocated to a towed trailer unit ...

&

"... having a battery integrated floorpan (which to my eyes looks a bit stronger than a standard floorpan) mean it's less suitable for towing?" applies to "It's mostly a case of the rear underfloor being full of battery etc" ... again, this is reasonable as there was no reference to whether 'the rear underfloor being full of battery' related to weight or it simply being no space or engineered ability to install a towbar ...

As such, the answer provided to Silverwhistle in no way addressed the question and was vague enough to require clarification before anyone could agree, so that's simply what Martyn1981 has requested ... all that's different are the words used, which may be different, but as we are all aware, there are plenty of word combinations which can be used to portray the same meaning ...

If you know the answer, it would be good to know ... if you don't just say so ... if it's image & reputation self-preservation preventing this, don't worry, (almost) nothing can be as bad for that as the (rather poor) attempt to use spin, smoke & mirrors as a cover so far!

I for one am very interested in fully understanding why you must obviously believe that there's an "innate technical reason why EVs can't tow'" ... note, no new words introduced, just a technical appraisal request ... maybe it would help change my thoughts on EVs ... oh, by the way, the question equally applies to Hybrids too ... :)

HTH
Z

AdrianC

zeupater wrote: »

note, this in no way addresses the point there is ' no innate technical reason why EVs can't tow'

It's certainly an interesting way of reading my reply, and absolutely not the one I intended.

I didn't directly address that, because it's clearly true. I was, instead, saying why most EVs and hybrids are not type-approved for towing.

"Why does more weight cause a problem" applies to " .. the high kerb weight meaning that there's very little spare weight capacity available." ... a reasonable interpretation being thatyour belief is that there's a limit to the total system weight (tower & towed) that is to be applied and that a heavier tower reduces the 'spare weight' which can be allocated to a towed trailer unit ...

Of course. The GTW needs to take the capabilities of the braking system into account. Yes, 750kg+ trailers are all over-run braked, but the over-run braking is still pushing the entire train forward, as it works via a spring-loaded coupling.

again, this is reasonable as there was no reference to whether 'the rear underfloor being full of battery' related to weight or it simply being no space or engineered ability to install a towbar ...

"Full" implies space.

I for one am very interested in fully understanding why you must obviously believe that there's an "innate technical reason why EVs can't tow'" ...

I don't. Indeed, I would be denying reality to claim such.