Will Brexit really be good for Britain?

CKhalvashi

Tammer wrote: »

I think change in the EU could have brought greater prosperity to the UK than Brexit (and would probably be good for Italy, Spain, Greece etc). The EU were unwilling to change however, as David Cameron found to his personal embarrassment.

Having said that, I sometimes wonder how we could have voted for Brexit. I then watch Gogglebox and tell myself that i'm watching typical Britons and suddenly it all makes sense. The moment for me is kind of like the end of I am Legend (book rather than film).

I never said that leaving couldn't bring greater prosperity, but I did also say it would be a massive risk, and one that I'm not willing to play with the future of the next generations.

I do completely agree that the EU needs to change though, however I think we're better doing that on the inside (and I also believe I said that UKIP, a party I hate, could be put to good use in doing this) rather than looking in outside.

Also, I don't have enough faith that the government is remotely capable of getting the task of leaving and sorting the future relationship with the world right.

CLAPTON

CKhalvashi wrote: »

I never said that leaving couldn't bring greater prosperity, but I did also say it would be a massive risk, and one that I'm not willing to play with the future of the next generations.

that is simply a subjective view ; no better that my view that staying is a massive risk to my children and their children

I do completely agree that the EU needs to change though, however I think we're better doing that on the inside (and I also believe I said that UKIP, a party I hate, could be put to good use in doing this) rather than looking in outside.

after 40 years and the last 8 since the GFC, no reasonable person can expect significant change : this would mean breaking up euroland
Do you honestly think that's on the cards?

Also, I don't have enough faith that the government is remotely capable of getting the task of leaving and sorting the future relationship with the world right.

who do you want to lead ? the people that have trashed the southern european countries?
a dictator of your choosing?
what exactly are you proposing

Thrugelmir

Tammer wrote: »

I think change in the EU could have brought greater prosperity to the UK than Brexit (and would probably be good for Italy, Spain, Greece etc). The EU were unwilling to change however, as David Cameron found to his personal embarrassment.

Why should Cameron be embarrassed? Showed that beneath the veneer there is no real unity. Free movement of people is based on ideology not practically.

Thrugelmir

CKhalvashi wrote: »

I do completely agree that the EU needs to change though, however I think we're better doing that on the inside (and I also believe I said that UKIP, a party I hate, could be put to good use in doing this) rather than looking in outside.

Very difficult to reach agreement on key issues. Too many vested interests. The EU has grown too quickly in size. In the process many matters have been glossed over. Rather than being resolved fully and properly. Fiscal integration has to be a main priority in the coming years.

BobQ

Tammer wrote: »

I think change in the EU could have brought greater prosperity to the UK than Brexit (and would probably be good for Italy, Spain, Greece etc). The EU were unwilling to change however, as David Cameron found to his personal embarrassment.

Having said that, I sometimes wonder how we could have voted for Brexit. I then watch Gogglebox and tell myself that i'm watching typical Britons and suddenly it all makes sense. .

I agree that the EU could have brought more prosperity than Brexit if the EU had changed (of course we will never know). But it would have involved a profound change to the EU before we reached the position that Cameron was in (or put in) a year ago.

Had they realised that UK was about to vote Leave, I suspect they would have made more changes to Freedom of Movement which was always the problem for the UK (and becoming so for others in the EU).

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Why should Cameron be embarrassed? Showed that beneath the veneer there is no real unity. Free movement of people is based on ideology not practically.

Cameron should not be embarrassed because he promised the vote and attempted to negotiate better terms with the EU but failed. But I think any PM that campaigns for an outcome in a referendum should feel embarassed if he does not win it.

You are right about ideology. Freedom of Movement should not be abSolute but be about practicality. Orignially it was about more or less equal economies with a relatively balanced movement between them, now it is unbalanced and creates issues. While I do not agree with some of the arguments used by Leave in relation to Freedom of Movement, I agree that it has raised issues that should have been addressed as the EU expanded and is the principle reason for the Brexit vote.

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

Cameron should not be embarrassed because he promised the vote and attempted to negotiate better terms with the EU but failed. But I think any PM that campaigns for an outcome in a referendum should feel embarassed if he does not win it.

No different to losing a General Election. Simply means that one hasn't been able to convince others of your views. No failure in that. Simply the life of a politician. Cameron wasn't in a position to negotiate. Simply too ask. The EU would never confer special treatment to an individual state. As would undermine the iron grip of the policrats in Brussels over their pet project.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

A report today says Mervyn King thinks that the UK remaining in the single market makes no sense.
Further, that

The European Union is facing "existential problems" over migration and the single currency for which it does not yet have the answers, former Bank of England governor Lord King has warned.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-king-idUKKBN14F0VX

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-facing-two-main-problems-and-has-answers-to-neither-of-them-a7496071.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-mervyn-king-single-market-custioms-union-a7495911.html

Many seem to ignore the continued migration problem.
This year to December 21st, over 350,000 migrants entered europe by the Mediterranean sea alone - most arriving in Greece and Italy.
Two countries which can ill-afford such numbers of immigrants.
http://www.iom.int/news/mediterranean-migrant-arrivals-reach-358403-official-deaths-sea-4913

cogito

The EU is failing on every level. It is failing to deliver economic prosperity to its members because of the straitjacket that is the euro. It has a massive democratic deficit because of the unelected dictatorial elite in Brussels which believes that the answer to every setback is more Europe. Its failure to get its books signed off for 20 years or more is clear evidence of mismanagement of taxpayers money at best and massive corruption at worst.

Cameron made a half hearted attempt at reforming it but failed dismally. It is incapable of reform because of the way it is governed. The Veto will soon be superceded by QMV at every level (it's hidden away in the Commission Work Programme 2017 for anyone who cares to look).

I used to be a strong supporter of the Common Market as a free trade area but what it has become appals me.

BobQ

cogito wrote: »

Its failure to get its books signed off for 20 years or more is clear evidence of mismanagement of taxpayers money at best and massive corruption at worst.

There are many reasons to criticise the EU but do you really need to keep perpetuating this falsehood. The accounts have been signed off as accurate every year since 2007.

How they are spent is where the problem occurs. The nations often do not use the money as EU rules require but we can hardly lecture them about that when we have the same problems in spending the NHS and Benefits budgets in the UK.

cogito

BobQ wrote: »

There are many reasons to criticise the EU but do you really need to keep perpetuating this falsehood. The accounts have been signed off as accurate every year since 2007.

How they are spent is where the problem occurs. The nations often do not use the money as EU rules require but we can hardly lecture them about that when we have the same problems in spending the NHS and Benefits budgets in the UK.

Fair enough- you got me although they whether they were signed off as accurate is debateable. What I should have said was that the auditors had refused to give them a clean bill of health as between 4.4% and 7% has been misspent annually. That's a huge amount of money.