Am I just an 'old fashioned' thinker

itsanne

swingaloo wrote: »

Thank you for your comments, I appreciate you taking the time.

I am walking a fine line as I am trying to support my sister but also keep the kids onside as I dont want to alienate them.
She has constantly given in to them as small children and they now have this sense of entitlement to the point where they treat her like dirt.
We have seen this day coming for ages, she always siad they would get easier as they get older but myself and other sister have always thought that if she didnt get their respect whilst they were younger it would be far harder to start later when they get even more headstrong.

She is a very tiny lady and both of them tower over her which dosent help, she simply has given in to keep the peace so often that its become the way of life.

She has tried the 'Im not doing anything for you' thing. If she refuses to iron or cook then the daughter will step in and do both her and the sons meals and ironing. The son will just not bother and snack on biscuits etc, he would never cook for himself. On one occasion she refused to bring cups and glasses downstairs for them and let them run out of clean ones (apart from one she kept for herself) hoping they would finally bring them down and wash them. What happened was- the son put all those in his room onto the floor on the landing as they were in his words 'stinking the bedroom out', the daughter took hers down to the kitchen but still didnt wash them. They drank milk form the bottle and just dug heels in till sister again backed down and did them.

Im just so frustrated by it all, its an awful situation and I could shake all three of them. Her life is being made hell by her children and the kids must be equally unhappy in their own way. To outsiders they look like lovely children and put on this united front with mum when we are at 'wider family occasion' but there is always that underlying tension that others dont always notice.

For instance, at the last family party we went to the daughter announced that she 'wanted to go home now (8.15pm) as she didnt like the music' (It was an 80s disco held for a cousins 21st). Sis told her 'We are staying till about 9.30/10 ish then we will go. Daughter smiled sweetly and said ok in front of everyone round the table but then ranted all the way home once they got in the car and when they got home and took their shoes off she picked up hers mums shoes and threw them out into the street in temper.

Unbelievable behaviour but run of the mill for the household at the moment.

This goes well beyond the behaviour I anticipated from your original question. The physical intimidation in particular is very concerning. I doubt whether it's possible for your sister to improve the situation without help if it's got to that stage (although there are things she could do). Perhaps family counselling would help if she would agree to it.

How much have you discussed the problem with your niece and nephew? Are they aware of how seriously you view their behaviour? Because of the physical aspects, I'm wondering whether my first thoughts about you not being more proactive are entirely correct - I'm not sure. It sounds as if you have a positive relationship with them so what you do could be effective, but if your sister still panders to them your input wouldn't work anyway and you could end up having problems with them yourself, leaving you even more frustrated.

You mentioned that you've previously posted about people you know not having control of their kids. I don't know what form your previous posts took, but from what you've said in this thread rather than thoughts about whether you are "just an 'old fashioned' thinker" you need advice about how to help your sister (and her children). If you haven't done so before, I would suggest a new thread specifically about that.

swingaloo

itsanne wrote: »

This goes well beyond the behaviour I anticipated from your original question. The physical intimidation in particular is very concerning. I doubt whether it's possible for your sister to improve the situation without help if it's got to that stage (although there are things she could do). Perhaps family counselling would help if she would agree to it.


Thank you, Itsanne. I understand what you say about my original question. I didnt go into too much detail in my first post, partly because I didnt think it necessary and partly because as my title said I wondered if I was just reading too much into whats going on. My sister gets very defensive if you try to discuss things and often says 'Ive spoken to other mums, all kids are like this at this age' which led to my original question as to if I was over reacting.

I added more at a later stage as the conversation just developed.

How much have you discussed the problem with your niece and nephew? Are they aware of how seriously you view their behaviour? Because of the physical aspects, I'm wondering whether my first thoughts about you not being more proactive are entirely correct - I'm not sure. It sounds as if you have a positive relationship with them so what you do could be effective, but if your sister still panders to them your input wouldn't work anyway and you could end up having problems with them yourself, leaving you even more frustrated.


I have spoken to them individually and casually which is why I know they they are not happy with things in themselves. The daughter gets quite tearful and regretful whilst the son always comes back with a defensive attitude and a 'lifes not fair' kind of thing. Ive tried talking to the alone and just as a general 'hows things' chat and Ive also spoken to them when they have been having one of the angry 3 way sessions with my sister and she has rang and asked me for backup. We have all sat together and tried to thrash out whats going on, Ive explained to the kids that I really feel mum is heading for a breakdown (because I do) and at the same tie Ive told sis that she needs to stop screaming and shouting as it just re enforces their behaviour and they all need to learn to talk rather than be antagonistic at every turn. Both kids and mum all got tearful and agreed there were faults on all sides and things needed to change.

The last time we had one of these 'clear the air and lets all make an effort chats' I came away feeling we had taken a small step forward. I later got told that after I had left they turned on her and said it showed how weak she was that she had to ring me!



You mentioned that you've previously posted about people you know not having control of their kids. I don't know what form your previous posts took, but from what you've said in this thread rather than thoughts about whether you are "just an 'old fashioned' thinker" you need advice about how to help your sister (and her children). If you haven't done so before, I would suggest a new thread specifically about that.

Thats what I was really hoping for. Im at my wits end and so is she. She has been to the doctor and told them everything and asked for 'family counselling' but apparently there is nowhere suitable in our area other than both the children beings referred to CAMS which she is reluctant to do as she dosent want the kids labelled as 'problem kids' when she is fully aware that a lot of this has been bought on by the way she handled them in the past. She says she overcompensated for dad not being there.

When I started the thread it was a general 'Is this really how all kids are today' even though I didnt really think it was but as the thread developed Ive just got drawn in to adding more detail.
The result of doing that was getting responses suggesting I was embellishing things for my own gain which is ridiculous.
However, Im not going to start a new thread, but thanks for the suggestion. Ive had a couple of posters who seem to have some kind of axe to grind and want to put me in the 'grumpy auntie no one wants spend time with' or the type of person who only wants answers which say Im right (although I dont know what point there would be starting a thread if that was the case) so Im going to leave it there as Im more concerned about my sister and her children than having childish arguments on here.

Thanks again.

Mojisola

swingaloo wrote: »

She has been to the doctor and told them everything and asked for 'family counselling' but apparently there is nowhere suitable in our area other than both the children beings referred to CAMS which she is reluctant to do as she dosent want the kids labelled as 'problem kids' when she is fully aware that a lot of this has been bought on by the way she handled them in the past.

As she understands that she has created the problem, would she be willing to try a Parenting Course? Google and see if there are any in her area.

It will be hard work, putting into practice what the course will suggest, but if the alternative is her having a breakdown and the children being taken into care (or coming to live with you?), it will be worth it.

swingaloo

orangesandapples wrote: »

Sorry OP but your posts about your sister and her children did not seem to come from a place of "concern", you judged her, criticized her and compared your parenting skills to hers as well as quite revoltingly your children to hers. No wonder many posters on this thread are not thinking you are as concerned as you only recently have made yourself out to be.

Your relatives are teens who do not wish to spend time with you, and you only complain and put down your sister. Maybe it is not your place to comment on how they should live. Maybe you should reflect on some of the disrespectful comments you have made here about your niece for example before putting the blame solely on another!

Oh please, stop twisting things and go and interfere in someone elses thread. None of it is about blame, its about watching my sister struggle and trying to help. She wouldnt be ringing and calling round every other day if she didnt need it. I am not putting my sister down, she will be the first to tell you that she has spoilt them rotten and made a rod for her own back, she comes to me for help. As for it not being my place to comment on how they live- If she didnt want and need help she wouldnt keep asking for it and you may be the sort of person who can turn a blind eye to family who are struggling but I am not.

I have not compared my children unfavourable with hers at all, mine are grown up and what I said was that when I was bringing mine up it was a different era when parents and schools could discipline more. 'Compared them revoltingly'? what a silly remark. They have never been compared, it would be ludicrous to compare a 13 year old with a 30 year old!

My opening thread was in the hope of finding out if they were just behaving as others today and are pretty much the norm or if things are as troubled as they seem to be. I think the world of my sister and these kids so dont make assumptions about me.

As for these teens who do not wish to spend time with me???????? MY opening thread was about the rudeness and disrespect they were showing to their mother as well as me. You dont know these kids and all all the trouble my sister is having with them does not take away the fact that they and I are extremely close. Underneath all the strife they are 2 kids who I have seen, and still see several times a week. You have no idea how much time we spend in each others company or what our relationship is like so please dont make assumptions
If you really have anything of substance to contribute then stick to the facts I have posted and dont put your own warped interpretation on things

Please dont bother to respond, I do not need your help or advice. I shan't be replying to you again so there is no need to go to the effort.
Thank you for your input however misguided it is.

Tygermoth

I have a co worker (a close one) in a similar situation.

Her issues started because she felt guilty that she couldn't keep the family together (dad left - started a new family) so she worked harder/tried harder/over achieved in attempt to be both mum and dad. She just wanted to know he was loved as dad didn't want or offer contact and the little lad took it hard.

He only needed to hint that he wanted something and she was driven to find a way to make it happen because she didnt want him to miss out. This intensified when he became very ill. People naturally are soft on very poorly children and bow to their wishes he got used to being indulged. As he was repeatedly severely unwell/required several operations in my very humble opinion he asserted control over the one aspect in his life could, his mother.

Struggling through on her own he learned very quickly (as kids do) that all he needed to change a situation to his advantage was to either make her feel guilty or say he was unwell. As he got older this turned in to petty and poor behaviour.

When he hit his teens transformed into nasty and spiteful acts. There is this really weird dichotomy that he wants to be in control of her but also utterly despises her for allowing him to control her. His disgust of her is palpable.

As he has been pandered to all his life if he doesn't get his way his rages are of legend and he totally rules the house. Everything falls to his whims, everything. what they eat where they go and who they see.Hes not been physically violent but hes got really really close.He slashed her tires when she couldn't drive him somewhere, broken things that are totally irreplaceable that she treasures (deceased relatives) and trashed the house on a number of occasions.

There is this tension in the home that makes the hairs on your arms go up when you walk in it almost thrums in the air. Weirdly like you sister kids they present a united front to everyone in family events. Like its all good here, nothing going on.

She also was hesitant to go to cams - for the reason you stated your sister was - but found some help from a charity called https://www.youngminds.org.uk -

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/for_parents/worried_about_your_child/anger

they helped with de-escalation and coping strategies also with intervention and support groups.

Shes only just started with them but i am hopeful.

Kaye1

Great post Tygermoth, really helpful.

Money_saving_maniac

swingaloo wrote: »

Sorry this is a longish post but Im 'niggled' and dont really understand why!!!

Ive posted before about a couple of people I know who dont have any control at all of their kids. Both of the people in question have now got kids in early teens and they are struggling more than ever.

My kids are grown up and were brought up in what was quite a different era when children had more respect for authority. Im firmly in the camp of thinking that if you set boundaries and adhere to them when children are younger rather than letting them run rings round you then you are in a better position when the 'rebellious' teenage years come around.
But, I raised mine some years ago when there was discipline at school and rules were rules so maybe my way of thinking just does not hold water.

My sister has been having issues with her 2 teens especially the daughter. (14)

Today they have been invited to ours for a Sunday roast at tea time. She had actually asked if they could come as she wanted to have a 'family Sunday' rather than the daughter disappearing for the day God knows where and the son sitting in his room on the Playstation or wandering the streets.


The daughter is a fussy eater so Ive been out and bought in specially for her and prepared a 'veggie' meal for her. Just had a message left on my phone to say that sis will be coming on her own as the daughter wants to see her friends and has made arrangements and the son (15) is going out with his girlfriend.

Both of them were aware that they were coming here a few days ago and whilst I know its not on every teenagers dream list to go out for tea I still think its bloody rude to just refuse to come at the last minute.

Sis says she has told them both they are out of order but that she 'Cant make them come'.

I dont know who Im most annoyed at, the kids, my sis for letting them dictate or myself for having expectations.

I had mine in the days when you just said 'You are going and thats that!' but I know its not that way anymore so I dont really know why I feel so niggled.

Rant over- thanks for reading.

The long and short of it is that you are a sensible and good parent, and sadly your sister is cut from a different cloth

swingaloo

Tygermoth wrote: »

I have a co worker (a close one) in a similar situation.

Her issues started because she felt guilty that she couldn't keep the family together (dad left - started a new family) so she worked harder/tried harder/over achieved in attempt to be both mum and dad. She just wanted to know he was loved as dad didn't want or offer contact and the little lad took it hard.

He only needed to hint that he wanted something and she was driven to find a way to make it happen because she didnt want him to miss out. This intensified when he became very ill. People naturally are soft on very poorly children and bow to their wishes he got used to being indulged. As he was repeatedly severely unwell/required several operations in my very humble opinion he asserted control over the one aspect in his life could, his mother.

Struggling through on her own he learned very quickly (as kids do) that all he needed to change a situation to his advantage was to either make her feel guilty or say he was unwell. As he got older this turned in to petty and poor behaviour.

When he hit his teens transformed into nasty and spiteful acts. There is this really weird dichotomy that he wants to be in control of her but also utterly despises her for allowing him to control her. His disgust of her is palpable.

As he has been pandered to all his life if he doesn't get his way his rages are of legend and he totally rules the house. Everything falls to his whims, everything. what they eat where they go and who they see.Hes not been physically violent but hes got really really close.He slashed her tires when she couldn't drive him somewhere, broken things that are totally irreplaceable that she treasures (deceased relatives) and trashed the house on a number of occasions.

There is this tension in the home that makes the hairs on your arms go up when you walk in it almost thrums in the air. Weirdly like you sister kids they present a united front to everyone in family events. Like its all good here, nothing going on.

She also was hesitant to go to cams - for the reason you stated your sister was - but found some help from a charity called https://www.youngminds.org.uk -

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/for_parents/worried_about_your_child/anger

they helped with de-escalation and coping strategies also with intervention and support groups.

Shes only just started with them but i am hopeful.

Thank you so much for the reply. A lot of that rings so true in my sisters situation especially the part about making her feel guilt so they get what they want. They had a really good standard of life income wise then dad left when he met someone whilst working abroad and started another family with her. It has hit them all hard and Im sure my sis tried to compensate in many ways.

Ive been close to them both since birth and they are both lovely kids underneath but Ive been able to see it developing through the years.

I dont criticise her parenting in the way some posters have suggested I do, I try to be supportive and the last thing she needs is someone making her feel she is not doing a good job.
But at the same time Ive always had the thought that if you let them run rings round you at 4 and 6 then it will be much harder to cope when they are 14 and 16.

The number of times Ive heard her say 'All kids are like this at this age' but even though every teenager obviously pushes the boundaries (as they should) Im sure that not all parents are constantly manipulated and living with the stress my sis is.

Ive just had a look at the website you suggest and will encourage my sis to do the same.

Thank you very, very much.

FBaby

I really don't think there is much you can do. You just have very different parenting style. I am fully with you and totally agree with your principles but I know that many parents accept their kids' bad attitude as the product of society rather than the result of their failure. It is so frustrating to see, but there really is nothing you can do to change her ways.

The best you can do is be there for her when she needs someone to let off stream with, and also to keep the door open to your nephew/niece so they have some place to go to if they also need to do so.

I've seen such children turn into very different adults. The daughter of one of my best friend was a nightmare as a teenager, argued very badly with her parents, screaming and shouting, didn't apply herself at school, sneaked out of the house, and wanted nothing to do with her parents. Then she went to college and it got a bit better, and then even decided to go to Uni and since then, she's turned into a very lovely and responsible young adult. My friend is really close to her again and she can't believe how bad things got at a certain time. She never gave up though.

Things are not so good with another friends' boy though. She too felt guilty after the separation and always made excuses. She did try to discipline him and at times but her punishments often seemed disproportionate one way or the other to the behaviour. Gradually, the punishment turned into appeal to think about how his behaviour affected her. I think she lost all his respect at this stage and he got used to feeling guilty so that a few years later, guilt became annoyance and even anger. He is now 17, failing at college, smoking, drinking and she thinks doing some drugs. He is out all the time and she has no idea where or when he might be back. She says there is nothing she can do now. I can tell she has given up and is just sad that it has got to that but feels totally helpless, and indeed she is. He is a clever boy though so I hope he too will have his light bulb moment before it's too late.

swingaloo

FBaby wrote: »

I really don't think there is much you can do. You just have very different parenting style. I am fully with you and totally agree with your principles but I know that many parents accept their kids' bad attitude as the product of society rather than the result of their failure. It is so frustrating to see, but there really is nothing you can do to change her ways.

The best you can do is be there for her when she needs someone to let off stream with, and also to keep the door open to your nephew/niece so they have some place to go to if they also need to do so.

I've seen such children turn into very different adults. The daughter of one of my best friend was a nightmare as a teenager, argued very badly with her parents, screaming and shouting, didn't apply herself at school, sneaked out of the house, and wanted nothing to do with her parents. Then she went to college and it got a bit better, and then even decided to go to Uni and since then, she's turned into a very lovely and responsible young adult. My friend is really close to her again and she can't believe how bad things got at a certain time. She never gave up though.

Things are not so good with another friends' boy though. She too felt guilty after the separation and always made excuses. She did try to discipline him and at times but her punishments often seemed disproportionate one way or the other to the behaviour. Gradually, the punishment turned into appeal to think about how his behaviour affected her. I think she lost all his respect at this stage and he got used to feeling guilty so that a few years later, guilt became annoyance and even anger. He is now 17, failing at college, smoking, drinking and she thinks doing some drugs. He is out all the time and she has no idea where or when he might be back. She says there is nothing she can do now. I can tell she has given up and is just sad that it has got to that but feels totally helpless, and indeed she is. He is a clever boy though so I hope he too will have his light bulb moment before it's too late.

Thanks Fbaby. Im sure that one day the 3 of them will wonder why it all happened and hopefully it will turn around. They are bright kids and the daughter does very well at school. The son is more in line with the 2nd part of your post at the moment, dissapearing, being late or not bothering to go to school. We had a chat about that a week or 2 ago and he said school was 'boring'. I told him that working on a production line is boring and that will possibly be for 45 years or more unless he works towards qualifications.

I have to hope that it turns round before something drastic happens, my door is always open for the 3 of them together or individually.