Vent: HGV Drivers who 'block' dual carriageways

class2ldn

derrick wrote: »

Why do people keep quoting this nonsense?

Speed limit for a HGV on motorways and dual carriageways in England and Wales is 60mph!

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits


.

The speed limit may be 60 but every lorry should be limited to 56.
Same with coaches. Legal limit on a motorway is 70 but there all limited to 62.
A speed limiter only limits the acceleration you can obtain from a vehicle, it doesn't stop a vehicle going over that speed on say a downhill stretch.
Come back when you know what you're talking about

vikingaero

Elephant racing will never die out unless it is legislated against. Why? The drivers. Most HGV drivers are reasonable, funny, personable, knowledgeable people. But get them behind the wheel and they turn into sociopaths much like a lot of car drivers.

agarnett

HiToAll wrote: »

At least this thread hasnt descended into broad sweeping generalisations about them there foreigners. Phew!!

Oh wait.

Those of us who have observed the changes in behaviour on our roads over a couple of decades know that some generalisations are worth investigating. Unfortunately, we've no-one to do the investigating.

There's habitually no respected police presence on large stretches of our motorways and hasn't been for two decades at least. UK trained HGV drivers were first and foremost UK trained car drivers and UK trained cyclists and motorcyclists before that.

What I am talking about is not training, but culture.

Many Eastern European countries/cultures did indeed suffer a chronic alcoholism problem - in the dark years after WW2. We may indeed have collected a few of our own HGV drivers turning to drink in recent years, suffering from depression at being eased out by lower paid competitors who accept 1930s working conditions!

A significant proportion of HGV tractors (the bit towing the long trailer) now on our motorways carry PL, BG, HU, LT, RO plates. That doesn't mean that they have driven the load in the trailer across Europe. Far from it. Same as a significant proportion of students seeking free or low cost higher education in Western Europe come from these nations, they have brought their tools of trade with them (whether it be a pencil case for a student or an HGV tractor for a truck driver). Same as an ever increasing number of workers have migrated to UK from those nations. Most don't cut their ties with their mother nations. They respect their mother nations first, and they are in UK to exploit opportunity. They are by definition, opportunists. I have no doubt that there are a significant number of Eastern European plated HGV tractors owned by their drivers, plying their trade in Western Europe, especially UK.

I understand that there are also a large number of these migrant workers driving GB plated tractors. Perhaps the pattern of opportunity is that migrants arrive in UK to drive UK registered tucks, using transferable EU licences, undercutting the local drivers, working hard to save for their own tractor which they may or may not choose to buy in a country of convenience - perhaps their mother country, but to use in UK or other Western Europe country.

There was a bus company controlling lo-cost routes out of London to Stansted, competing with National Express. I used them a fair bit. As far as I could tell, all of the drivers were East European, and all the "ground staff" were young Italians. Economic migrants - nothing wrong with their aspirations at all, but their culture - it was different. The drivers worked too long without sensible breaks. I had to wake one up at stansted at 06 one morning. He was in the lane going straight on to Cambridge!

Nothing wrong with opportunists - wealth is created for us all by opportunists. We like to call them entrepreneurs when we are trying to make a positive point about how they think. Fact is, how an opportunist thinks is governed by self-interest and what he or she thinks they can get away with. Maybe Eddie Stobart started that way. Maybe Norbert Detressangle of France started that way.
I don't notice those brands on the roads much anymore. I don't think Eddie Stobart gained their undoubted affection awarded by the British public by letting their drivers loose as out and out individual opportunists with impossible deadlines constantly in mind. However, as I say, I have seen far fewer of those once conspicuous brands in the last 5 years than I once did. What I do notice are the Eastern Europe plates. Every motorway journey I make.

I was struck by the sweet comment by an earlier poster that told us they had driven 100 miles one week without overtaking anything once

That is not the sort of comment that comes from someone who is likely to recognise what is being complained about in this thread.

I have driven all over Europe in left and right hand drive vehicles, some larger, (albeit not HGV although there are HGV licences amongst family and friends) and some smaller. The HGV driving discipline is noticeably different in every country.

I am an opportunist. I make "good" progress when I am driving long distances. I currently have had a clean licence for the last 5 years. When I was a younger man in a hurry, and less able to spot a police car at 1000 yards, I generally had one speeding endorsement, sometimes two. Now I seem to "get away with it". Does that make me clever or to be admired? I think not. I have had several conversations with police officers over my driving career about speed. Almost all those conversations in the past. Why is that? Do I sound like my driving has improved?

What marks out HGV drivers who drive for themselves primarily is the "anything goes" mentality that means they will weave in and out of outside lanes in offensive manoeuvres which indicate that they know (and so do I know but some commentators here do not) that they can in fact accelerate fast enough with just a little anticipation and guile, to force their way into any line of outside lane traffic cruising at or close to their dodgy limiter speeds.

It is very clear to me that many trucks' limiters have been fiddled with, but what is clearer is that fiddled with or not, there are now far too many HGV drivers who treat car drivers as the nuisance to their style of progress, and who treat them with disdain.

It is very similar perhaps to the growing body of car drivers who treat cyclists with disdain.

In both cases it is cultural, and in both cases it unnecessarily risks lives as well as being a nuisance.

I do blame police for allowing such cultures to develop so far without discouragement.

If a Polish lorry driver comes to the UK and realises that on a three lane motorway such as the M11, there is a constant stream of cars and white vans and the occasional small trucks with tail-lifts of up to 7.5 tonnes I guess, passing him with impunity at 90mph plus, every day of every week, then he KNOWS that there is no-one to stop him from bending the rules too. He is of course a car driver too, and he knows that in his car he can probably travel from West Ham to Stansted (where the M11 goes down to 2 lanes) in half an hour if he is late to catch Ryanair to Krakow, just as well as I do. There will be no-one stopping him in his car, and no one stopping him in his lorry either if he gives it his best shot with a fair wind His mind tells him it's good and that's what motorways are for.

And what is worse, his bosses will employ that mindset to bend rules like that daily in preference to an HGV driver who better understands his responsibility, and was trained to stick to the rules, but who is probably now out of a job.

Over a few short years, it all becomes the pervading culture in the name of business.

In my view, that's what we are looking at - just another social decline, and the usual general apathy to go with it - unless we bother come here to a thread like this and talk about it

We're not apathetic, now, are we? NO-o-o-o-o :rotfl:

What we have is a wild west, as in so many spheres of UK life.

Feral_Moon

Agarnett - I assume your comment re driving 100 miles without overtaking was aimed at me!

If you'd read the rest of the post you'll also note that I stated I was driving an older classic vehicle at the time. One which is quite happy cruising along at 60mph but would struggle to accelerate quickly were I to overtake the vehicle in front. This would no doubt inconvenience any vehicle I pulled out in front of, causing then to either reduce speed or move to an outer lane (if one were to be were available).

It certainly bears no indication of my experience of driving on motorways and dealing with the daily traffic problems in other, faster vehicles. I found your comment to be somewhat patronising.

What I also find extremely annoying is, despite travelling at 60mph, why do I get HGV lorries overtaking and then completely boxing me in for several miles whilst they travel at a speed they're not legally entitled to perform. I find this extremely selfish and dangerous as I can no longer observe the traffic ahead so have no idea whether I need to take defensive action at any point.

class2ldn

That implies you're too close, if someone comes into your space in front then the safest thing to do is to slow down just to open the gap so there is a safe distance.
Regardless or not whether you can see in front, if they slam their anchors on then you should have a safe enough distance to stop if they do.
If you don't think that's possible then you're too close.

daytona0

class2ldn wrote: »

That implies you're too close, if someone comes into your space in front then the safest thing to do is to slow down just to open the gap so there is a safe distance.
Regardless or not whether you can see in front, if they slam their anchors on then you should have a safe enough distance to stop if they do.
If you don't think that's possible then you're too close.

Indeed, pretty sure the highway code refers to something along those lines.

Funny how people talk about how this happened for "several miles", or the fractional (0.1) speed difference between two overtaking lorries, like with the OP! The maths simply does not add up! Lets call "several" 5 miles. Let's assume that the speed is capped at 60 mph during these 5 miles because we are stuck behind a HGV.... D=ST or D/S = T...... 5/60 = time = 0.083 hours or 5 minutes! Five whole minutes for a HGV to overtake, using a conservative "several miles" guesstimate!

Forgive me for thinking that overtaking simply does not take 5 minutes, nor that it would actually be classed as overtaking (and more cruising in the wrong lane!). And what's worse, Feral Moon suggests that they drive for at least 5 minutes without adjusting to ensure that they can see far enough ahead

But I think it is more a case of people on here exaggerating a bit :rotfl:

(oh, and if someone was encumbered for 5 minutes at 60 mph, as apposed to the legal 70 mph, then they would have lost a grand total of 0.83 miles! Such is the folly of life, if you sit down and think about it logically the whole thing isn't *that* bad!)

Feral_Moon

class2ldn wrote: »

That implies you're too close, if someone comes into your space in front then the safest thing to do is to slow down just to open the gap so there is a safe distance.
Regardless or not whether you can see in front, if they slam their anchors on then you should have a safe enough distance to stop if they do.
If you don't think that's possible then you're too close.

As your post follows mine, I can only conclude you're referring to me. I think you need to re-read what I actually posted rather than what you think I posted.

Regardless of the vehicle I'm driving (I own several from old classic, to general workhorse, to fast sports car and a 7.5 ton horse lorry.) So yes, I see and experience driving from numerous angles.

At no point do I ever drive too close to the vehicle in front. But when you've an artic lorry in front, and one alongside, then I could be 100ft behind and still not be able to see traffic in front.

There should be a law against lorries doing this. I'm certain it would save many lives on our motorways and major A roads.

agarnett

Feral_Moon wrote: »

Agarnett - I assume your comment re driving 100 miles without overtaking was aimed at me!

If you'd read the rest of the post you'll also note that I stated I was driving an older classic vehicle at the time. One which is quite happy cruising along at 60mph but would struggle to accelerate quickly were I to overtake the vehicle in front. This would no doubt inconvenience any vehicle I pulled out in front of, causing then to either reduce speed or move to an outer lane (if one were to be were available).

It certainly bears no indication of my experience of driving on motorways and dealing with the daily traffic problems in other, faster vehicles. I found your comment to be somewhat patronising.

Sorry if it sounded a bit patronising. I know what it is like to drive old cars (have had a few in my five decades of driving!!) and also driving heavier vehicles where it is difficult to plan an overtake, same as it is difficult to plan an overtake in an HGV with a 56mph limiter (I don't have an HGV licence but know well enough their capabilities) unless the driver is a bit pushy with it.

What I also find extremely annoying is, despite travelling at 60mph, why do I get HGV lorries overtaking and then completely boxing me in for several miles whilst they travel at a speed they're not legally entitled to perform.

If you really believe HGVs frequently overtake you when you are travelling at 60mph, I suspect you are mistakenly relying on your speedometer to measure true speed. It almost certainly isn't true speed. I think it has probably always been true that virtually all non tachograph speedometers overread by around 10%. If you choose to drive with the needle on exactly 60, then your actual speed may be nearer 55mph. What is more, few police officers on a motorway are going to pull you up for travelling at a true speed of 75mph anyway (say 80 on your speedo to be sure ), so what's with the 60mph for miles and miles? Even Morris Minor's can cruise at 80mph on the speedo apart from the long steep bits! I respect your right to sit at 60 on the speedo if you are comfortable doing it, but don't be surprised at the effect it has on others, (not dissimilar problem to burkinis on the beach perhaps?). If you are doing something different to what most aim to be doing on a motorway, especially if as you yourself say, you drive faster cars too so you know what is "normal" then you surely expect some kind of anti-tall poppy behaviour by the less tolerant members you share the joys of the road with

With a pretty car, why not take the pretty route? Speed limiters on HGVs are more accurate than car speedos I reckon (when they haven't been fiddled with) so the HGVs overtaking you may indeed be more or less legal anyway, by the sounds of it. And would you begrudge them a few percent tolerance anyway like you get in your other cars?

If you are driving at a true speed of nearer 55 mph and the HGVs can go a little faster on the limiter. then naturally they get a bit annoyed at getting held up by having to follow you when they know that even your classic car is probably capable of more.

They probably think you are extremely selfish in their special way

I find this extremely selfish and dangerous as I can no longer observe the traffic ahead so have no idea whether I need to take defensive action at any point.

What sort of Classic are you talking about that you worry about having to take defensive action when doing 55 to 60mph on a motorway - is it a handbrake only jobbie? Do you slow down to let them back in if you feel they are out in the second lane for an age? Do you flash your lights once briefly to let them know when their trailer is well past you indicating it is safe for them to pull back into the nearside lane, or leave them to sort their own problems once they've overstepped your mark?

I see you mention a horsebox too. I fully understand why you will be driving sometimes at a snails pace or rather, at a pace where acceleration and deceleration are ideally almost non-existent, and that perhaps gives us a clue of the bigger story of your tendency to drive "defensively". If you have animals onboard, clearly you have to anticipate a long way ahead. I drive like that too when trying to get the best out of hybrid. I would bet many drivers behind me are annoyed that they very rarely see brake lights from me when I am perfecting my style Trouble is, few motorway users at all, including most HGV drivers, would have any idea what you are thinking of constantly when driving a loaded horsebox, would they? The "HORSES" sign is I think pretty much disregarded by most drivers' sub-consciouses unless they grew up in the country and have seen a horse bolt at the roadside with a rider on it, or a bolt whilst actually in a horsebox and get itself in a right pickle.

PS I like daytona0's mathematical analyses which are more telling than even daytona0 realises I think. I have actually witnessed an HGV overtaking another HGV and for the operation to take a full 5 minutes! In fact I have witnessed it a number of times over the years although thankfully not every motorway trip! I do fear though that is more and more a common occurrence because the culture of these overtaking cowboys is now such that they are not embarrassed when they get it so wrong. It's simple fact that some HGV's have fiddled limiters but are not as powerful on inclines as others with unfiddled limiters and better maintenance.

Some of the "good guy" drivers in the latter category can maintain their 56mph all the way up the next incline, whilst the cowboy's truck cannot sustain his slightly higher speed which he used to start his overtake before the incline, so he gets stuck alongside until the next downhill bit and has another go. We've all seen it. Is the "good guy" being good when he holds his speed at 56mph regardless of the cowboy's struggles out in the next lane? Probably. He knows that a fair proportion of cowboys out there won't come straight back in anyway. Instead they will spend a further 5 minutes trying to get overtake the next HGV 100 feet further ahead whilst they are out there. And 5 minutes becomes 10 for anyone behind. Have seen that too.

daytona0

Feral_Moon wrote: »

I won't quote the patronising idiot above, for fear of giving his post(s) any further credence.

Comically, by not quoting that person we are none the wiser as to who you are referring to

Love how you referred to agarnett as "somewhat patronising" and you've gone for the "patronising idiot" one with me/another person. Pure ignorance. Saying this on the one hand "why do I get HGV lorries overtaking and then completely boxing me in for several miles" and then responding like that when someone challenges the "several miles" part. If you are going to say "several miles" then you need to recognise the mathematical implications of that statement!

But I'm sure you are just exaggerating, much like you are when you call me/someone a patronising idiot and then go on to be ignorant and blank the post.

But hey ho, a second folly of life. People can be weird as well

owen_money

agarnett wrote: »

T

It is very clear to me that many trucks' limiters have been fiddled with, but what is clearer is that fiddled with or not, there are now far too many HGV drivers who treat car drivers as the nuisance to their style of progress, and who treat them with disdain.

Very interesting post and observations. I fully agree with the comment above in bold. As a high mileage motorway 'car driver' I have too seen this change over the last few years in attitude. It is now rare, when joining a motorway for a truck to pull into the middle lane to allow you to join, even if the lane is clear. They expect you to slow down, and if you speed up to join ahead of them you can expect flashing lights and tooting horns.
On duel carriage ways more often than not if the want to overtake they just pull out even if that means you have to brake hard.


These are only two examples and not all truck drivers are like this, and maybe it is stress of the modern day world, but its not a change for the better. Shame