An Evening With... Jeremy Corbyn

BobQ

ruggedtoast wrote: »

You have to read between the lines when accessing the mainstream media, and think for yourself.

I appreciate that ability is in rather short supply on this forum.

You quote:

"YouGov last week reported a 14% deficit for Mr Corbyn’s party.

But its updated figures today have headline figures of the Tories down four points on 38% and Labour up three on 31%."

If this is the case why do You Gov still include the 14% on their front page and the data remains unchanged. Were you dreaming?
Or do you have a better source than YouGov itself.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/categories/politics/

BobQ

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

A quote from Margaret Thatcher: Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples' money.

The problem with that quote is that if you can manage the economy properly "socialism is fine" is quite a concession.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

I'm a life long Conservative voter - but Labour's current dire situation gives me no pleasure.

I fully understand that our political system needs credible parties of opposition to keep the government with a healthy fear of losing the next election if they veer too far from the majority of voters.

Because in politics that's the only thing that prevents absolute power from corrupting absolutely...

I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of fringe parties with no real chance of electoral success that (quite rightly) act as a loud noise bringing attention to issues that may then go on to be adopted by the major parties of government.

But Labour shouldn't be one of them.

This country needs an effective, credible, and most importantly electable opposition to hold the the party of government to account.

An opposition that is capable of representing the views of the majority and winning elections should the party of government fail to deliver on it's promises or mess up on big issues like the economy.

Without that - our democracy, and our society, is in real trouble.

We have fringe parties aplenty to perform the role of loud but unelectable entities which draw attention to issues.

We need an effective and electable opposition.... And we don't have it with Corbyn in charge of Labour.

The true "middle ground" as far as the general population are concerned - and the only place Labour can inhabit if it intends to win an election - is in the same spectrum of left/right as that occupied by New Labour and Tony Blair.

Labour under Ed Milliband won just 232 seats - almost 100 seats short of what it needed - If an election were held tomorrow based on current polling Labour would lose another 50-90 seats.

The only Labour leader to win an election in 40 years has been Blair and the only Labour party to win an election in 40 years has been New Labour.

If you do not move to where the voters are you cannot win elections. If you can't win elections you cannot effect change. And if you can not effect change you do not serve your membership.

In order to change anything at all - first Labour have to win.

And that ain't gonna happen under Corbyn or anyone remotely close to him from a policy perspective.

Shakethedisease

Imo Labour is in a painful transition phase. There's been a lot of Corbyn is unelectable banded about without addressing face on the fact that both Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband were unelectable too.

Labour moving ever more rightward lost Labour Scotland, and austerity politics which Miliband was too weak to rail against in any meaningful way has given rise to UKIP ( there's no houses and hospital beds because immigration ).. also in traditional Labour heartlands ( hence the Brexit vote ). Labour presenting a slightly weaker or tweaked version of Conservative party policies wasn't winning elections either. This had to be faced up to at some point.

I guess it's happening now. Corbyn is dragging Labour back to the centre left again kicking and screaming. No matter what the media have to say about him and no matter how many MP's resign. It's happening anyway if he wins the leadership election. It's interesting to see his opponent Smith having to address and start to talk centre left policy in order to compete. Something unthinkable only a year ago.

As someone has already said, the Blair/Brown/Miliband years left a huge vacuum in center left politics and it's one when this transition phase is over, that Labour can fill. It's unlikely that Corbyn will be able to shape the Labour party or take it anywhere near as far left as he would like. It's also unlikely that he'll be leader for long if someone else emerges from the ashes in the next few years. But this current in fighting will come to a natural conclusion at some point leaving Labour more to the left policy wise that it was under Miliband. Therefore a much better and stronger opposition with clear blue water between the two parties.

Personalities aside imo I think Corbyn has been necessary for the Labour party. They were in danger of becoming Tory lite with nothing new to offer bar a few tweaks here and there.

As for the next election, well it's likely to be four years off. If the Tories do badly over Brexit or we find ourselves in the middle of a recession or the NHS goes into some sort of crisis. A whole myriad of things can happen. Then Labour and one with distinct and different polices may well be a party that people might think about voting for once again. Especially if Corbyn steps aside when a more likely looking PM candidate with a more media friendly persona rises through the ranks which is bound to happen at some point.

* ( disclaimer I'm SNP with no dog in this fight ).

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Corbyn is dragging Labour back to the centre left again kicking and screaming. .

Blair was the only Labour leader to occupy the Centre Left.

Brown was further left than Blair, Ed Milliband was far left, and Corbyn is extreme left.

If Labour want to win elections they need to reoccupy the centre left sphere.

And the only Labour party to do that (and hence the only Labour party to win a GE in 40 years) was New labour under Tony Blair.

seven-day-weekend

Moby wrote: »

I'm Labour always have been, we have suffered over the years from entryism from the hard left and we are experiencing it now. The tories had similar issues but then UKIP provided a vehicle for the extremist hate mongers instead so they left. If you look at the background of the candidates for the UKIP leadership....I think at least three were ex tory councillors who were expelled or left the party because of their extreme views. We are now going through the same thing in the Labour Party.

Um.....I don't recall two thirds of the Tory cabinet resigning because of their lack of faith in their leader, nor indulging in court cases about whose name should be on the ballot, nor about which members can vote and which can't, nor heaping abuse upon those who disagree. Not a remotely similar situation.

BobQ

Moby wrote: »

I'm Labour always have been, we have suffered over the years from entryism from the hard left and we are experiencing it now. The tories had similar issues but then UKIP provided a vehicle for the extremist hate mongers instead so they left. If you look at the background of the candidates for the UKIP leadership....I think at least three were ex tory councillors who were expelled or left the party because of their extreme views. We are now going through the same thing in the Labour Party.

My inclination has been to vote Labour although often I have voted Lib Dem to keep the Tories out. I still cannot conceive of voting Conservative, but voting Labour is increasing unlikely for me. As Hamish states, we need a viable opposition for a strong democracy. Corbyn is ensuring that we do not.

This is not the same as the Conservatives. UKIP attracted some Conservative right wingers but the party is unchanged. Conservative moderation in recent years is not through choice, it is the result of the realities of coalition and small majorities. With a 50+ seat majority the nasty party would re-emerge.

Corbyn and the fanatics that support him (including I believe some Trots) are dragging the party so far left that they have no chance of being elected. The Conseratives were never affected by such a prospect.

So while I wish you were right (that it is temporary phase). I think this has a good chance of being the end. We how have a legal decision that says that party elections can be confined to those the NEC chooses not all members. After the next NEC elections the committee will be filled with Corbyn acolytes. Corbyn will have another strong mandate and most of its MPs have nowhere to go as the fanatics campaign for their deselection by meetings packed with Corbyn supporters.

I suspect a split within the year, mass resignations of the whip and when the numbers are clear, negotiations on the start of a centre left party and possibly Corbyn replaced as Leader of the Opposition and perhaps an alliance with the SNP and LibDems.

Very sad for a once great party........

BobQ

ruggedtoast wrote: »

I call this as absolute bullshtt.

If you'd actually attended any meeting you would know full well that members not eligible to vote in the election, I.e. from after January, are not eligible to vote in, or even attend the constituency nomination meetings that are occurring.

I went to one last week and it was respectful and deferential. Everyone got a say and a clap whether they were pro Smith or Corbyn and some of the new members came at the end for a social.

You have provided a perfect example of the anti Corbyn sewage that the mainstream has to create because they can't find anything actually wrong to complain about. Other than people daring to disagree with them.

Shame on you.

If you knew as much about the party as you profess you would know that following the original court decision to allow recent members to vote, members were contacted at short notice and invited to attend meetings being held on 11th Aug. They did this despite the requirement to give 7 days notice of holding meetings.

I know this because my cousin who joined this year (and was lied to by the party website saying they would have a leadership vote) received such a letter. Her experience of the Nomination meeting was much the same !!! Moby describes.

Moby

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Um.....I don't recall two thirds of the Tory cabinet resigning because of their lack of faith in their leader, nor indulging in court cases about whose name should be on the ballot, nor about which members can vote and which can't, nor heaping abuse upon those who disagree. Not a remotely similar situation.

Of course no two situations are the same but Theresa May called you the nasty party for a reason. Im saying the emergence of UKIP helped the Tories shed that image.

Moby

BobQ wrote: »

My inclination has been to vote Labour although often I have voted Lib Dem to keep the Tories out. I still cannot conceive of voting Conservative, but voting Labour is increasing unlikely for me. As Hamish states, we need a viable opposition for a strong opposition. Corbyn is ensuring that we do not.

This is not the same as the Conservatives. UKIP attracted some Conservative right wingers but the party is unchanged. Conservative moderation in recent years is not through choice, it is the result of the realities of coalition and small majorities. With a 50+ seat majority the nasty party would re-emerge.

Corbyn and the fanatics that support him (including I believe some Trots) are dragging the party so far left that they have no chance of being elected. The Conseratives were never affected by such a prospect.

So while I wish you were right (that it is temporary phase). I think this has a good chance of being the end. We how have a legal decision that says that party elections can be confined to those the NEC chooses not all members. After the next NEC elections the committee will be filled with Corbyn acolytes. Corbyn will have another strong mandate and most of its MPs have nowhere to go as the fanatics campaign for their deselection by meetings packed with Corbyn supporters.

I suspect a split within the year, mass resignations of the whip and when the numbers are clear, negotiations on the start of a centre left party and possibly Corbyn replaced as Leader of the Opposition and perhaps an alliance with the SNP and LibDems.

Very sad for a once great party........

Agree to some extent but two things to give you cause for optimism. The first past the post system makes it very difficult for a third party to break through and replace Labour. If the tories therefore run out of steam simply because of the electoral system we have Labour will be the alternative. Also remember Corbyn is 67 and there is no-one credible to pick up his legacy and run with it when he goes. I think we can wear him down, stay in the party and fight. 172 deselections are never going to happen!