Will Britain really leave EU?

gadgetmind

mrginge wrote: »

Why do you need to get people from the EU to move to the UK? Why not just erm....employ people from the UK?

Because we can't get enough of them, and trust me, we try. The UK doesn't train enough engineers, and even with those we can tempt over from the EU, it's still not enough. We pay £30k on day one for a fresh graduate even in the grim North, and still we can't get enough people.

This is common across my industry and across dozens of others. The UK simply doesn't have enough skilled people to tackle hundreds of skilled jobs. You could argue that we should train more, and we're doing our bit, but universities struggle to to find enough people with the A-levels and grades to fill their STEM classes as it is.

You could argue that outside the EU we could hire from across the world. Well, we already do that, and have to employ an expert visa company to get people here on Tier 1 and Tier 2 and it's a right royal PITA.

You could argue that the simplicity of hiring EU and the difficulty of hiring non-EU will meld into a half-way but still serious PITA system.

However, in the here and now, no EU people will consider coming to the UK to put down roots given the uncertainly. If this continues for 1-2 more years, it will be too late as UK industry will have reacted as we simply have no choice.

mrginge

gadgetmind wrote: »

Because we can't get enough of them, and trust me, we try. The UK doesn't train enough engineers, and even with those we can tempt over from the EU, it's still not enough. We pay £30k on day one for a fresh graduate even in the grim North, and still we can't get enough people.

This is common across my industry and across dozens of others. The UK simply doesn't have enough skilled people to tackle hundreds of skilled jobs. You could argue that we should train more, and we're doing our bit, but universities struggle to to find enough people with the A-levels and grades to fill their STEM classes as it is.

You could argue that outside the EU we could hire from across the world. Well, we already do that, and have to employ an expert visa company to get people here on Tier 1 and Tier 2 and it's a right royal PITA.

You could argue that the simplicity of hiring EU and the difficulty of hiring non-EU will meld into a half-way but still serious PITA system.

However, in the here and now, no EU people will consider coming to the UK to put down roots given the uncertainly. If this continues for 1-2 more years, it will be too late as UK industry will have reacted as we simply have no choice.

Sounds to me like our education systems are not effectively geared to support the skills needs of our economy. freedom of movement is the cheap fix for this and actively discourages government and businesses from addressing this issue.

gadgetmind

mrginge wrote: »

Sounds to me like our education systems are not effectively geared to support the skills needs of our economy

There will always be imbalances. Allowing freedom of movement helps address these.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23030680-700-the-truth-about-migration-how-it-will-reshape-our-world/

and actively discourages government and businesses from addressing this issue.

These is some merit to this argument, but demand for different skills can change quickly in different locations. Allowing people to move where their skills are valued works well.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23030680-700-the-truth-about-migration-how-it-will-reshape-our-world/

I'd love to see more kids in the UK taking A-levels that open the door to a STEM degree, but we're failing to make it happen. I feel that as a company we're doing all we can, and we lobby HMG and schools to do more, but it's still not enough.

Note that I'm not saying we'll hire fewer UK engineers; we'll hire those we can find so job prospects for UK STEM people should remain rosy, but our UK workforce will dwindle and we/they will pay less UK tax and NI.

Note that we're lucky in that we're not exposed to the UK economy as close to 100% of our business is outside the UK. Businesses exposed to the UK economy are bracing themselves for a rough ride, and they are more than likely going to get one. Unskilled people (those very people who voted for Brexit) are sadly going to be the ones bearing the brunt.

Interesting times.

martinthebandit

gadgetmind wrote: »

Because we can't get enough of them, and trust me, we try. The UK doesn't train enough engineers, and even with those we can tempt over from the EU, it's still not enough. We pay £30k on day one for a fresh graduate even in the grim North, and still we can't get enough people.

This is common across my industry and across dozens of others. The UK simply doesn't have enough skilled people to tackle hundreds of skilled jobs. You could argue that we should train more, and we're doing our bit, but universities struggle to to find enough people with the A-levels and grades to fill their STEM classes as it is.

You could argue that outside the EU we could hire from across the world. Well, we already do that, and have to employ an expert visa company to get people here on Tier 1 and Tier 2 and it's a right royal PITA.

You could argue that the simplicity of hiring EU and the difficulty of hiring non-EU will meld into a half-way but still serious PITA system.

However, in the here and now, no EU people will consider coming to the UK to put down roots given the uncertainly. If this continues for 1-2 more years, it will be too late as UK industry will have reacted as we simply have no choice.

.....and for a different perspective http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/30/andrew_fentem_silicon_roundabout_brexit/

'Last week, I met up with a friend who is the head of software for a large, well-known British technology company. Like a lot of the Remainers in the tech press, he was complaining that he had to do most of his recruitment abroad – such as from Eastern Europe. So I asked him what levels of salaries he was offering. The answer, it turned out, was £25k a year for junior roles. I was quite shocked. In the very early 1990s I was briefly employed as a junior coder and was paid about the going rate back then: £19k. Since those days, general compound inflation has been approximately 100 per cent, and rents have increased approximately 200 per cent.

When I asked why they were offering so little, my friend replied that with the EU’s mandatory freedom of movement, the owners of the company "know that they can get away with it".

Tromking

martinthebandit wrote: »

When I asked why they were offering so little, my friend replied that with the EU’s mandatory freedom of movement, the owners of the company "know that they can get away with it".

Ssshhhhh!
They`ll call you a right-wing anti-immigration xenophobe or a leftist anti-capitalist!
They don't care which.

gadgetmind

Ah yes, The Register.

£25k for a graduate with the relevant skills is *very* low. We typically offer £30k and get turned down about 50% of the time, but we do want bright bunnies rather than coding monkeys.

Anyway, if he can't hire these people from the EU and have them work in the UK, what's he going to do? I've just done the pay rises for my team (average 3%) and had to work my spreadsheets in a dozen currencies. I can pay people in Koruna and Zloty and Euro just as easily as in sterling.

The world has changed. Trying to erect walls and pretend it hasn't pretty much means putting up a "Closed For Business" sign.

Tromking

BobQ wrote: »

If a deal was struck which gave the UK and EU some mutually acceptable economic continuity and the UK control of immigration if not its termination, I suspect May would put it to a second referendum on whether to accept it or not knowing that it would be accepted.

I agree.
This story is apparently already causing ructions in the Tory Party. It seems the avowed Brexiteers feel that this is the beginning of a possible fudge on Brexit.

posh*spice

gadgetmind wrote: »

Ah yes, The Register.

£25k for a graduate with the relevant skills is *very* low. We typically offer £30k and get turned down about 50% of the time, but we do want bright bunnies rather than coding monkeys.

Anyway, if he can't hire these people from the EU and have them work in the UK, what's he going to do? I've just done the pay rises for my team (average 3%) and had to work my spreadsheets in a dozen currencies. I can pay people in Koruna and Zloty and Euro just as easily as in sterling.

The world has changed. Trying to erect walls and pretend it hasn't pretty much means putting up a "Closed For Business" sign.

I'm not surprised you have to go abroad to find employees. No Self-respecting Brit would work for you. You sound like a disgusting employer. In what world is referring to an employee as a monkey acceptable?

I do hope you relocate your business elsewhere in the EU. We won't miss you.

mayonnaise

Article 50 ‘will be triggered by 2020’

Britain will begin the Brexit process before the next general election in 2020, according to the chairman of the Conservative Party.

Looks like it's dawning on the Conservatives that triggering Article 50 early in this Parliament would be economical and political suicide.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/24/article-50-will-be-triggered-by-2020-6025929/

CLAPTON

mayonnaise wrote: »

Article 50 ‘will be triggered by 2020’



Looks like it's dawning on the Conservatives that triggering Article 50 early in this Parliament would be economical and political suicide.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/24/article-50-will-be-triggered-by-2020-6025929/

McLaughlin was a 'remainer' so is doing everything possible to undermine the wishes of the people.