The EU: IN or OUT?

uk1

Ballard wrote: »

1. Please quote me mentioning anything about Luddites.
2. How about not accusing me of lying about being busy.
3. Please copy and paste the bit about Merkel no longer wanting free movement of citizens.

You really are getting tiresome with your posts.

Fair enough. My apologies for the terrible slur .....:)

Earlier you said that you saw no evidence that there was a softening in attitude towards the UK in the EU.

I offered that there was a sign in that they were trying to dump Junckers who is at the heart of the problem.

You seemed not to see the link.

I posted an article which was published before the vote which gives a background to the way that Junckers has been seen as a liability in the EU because he has recast his role as a head of all states a component of which is the immigration issue. You said that you had scanned it but hadn't read it.

When you get the time, I think you might agree firstly that if Junckers hadn't been President as Cameron had lobbied, then things would have been different. Without him and with a President more in tune with member states then we would probably have been a different vote.

The action to try and unseat him seems a very clear indication to me that the EU holds him and his antics responsible and that without him the EU may be protected from further exits, and should his removal if it can be orchestrated would herald a less confrontational stance with the UK.

Once again apologies for the slur .....:)

Jeff

BananaRepublic

uk1 wrote: »

CLUE: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-commission-president-juncker-under-fire-a-1098232.html

This was written in Der Spiegel the week before brexit and provides some insight into the Juncker issue.
Jeff

That sums up my concerns about the EU. Not enough accountability, too many jobs for the boys, and buggins turn.

uk1

BananaRepublic wrote: »

That sums up my concerns about the EU. Not enough accountability, too many jobs for the boys, and buggins turn.

What really saddens me about all this is I have no doubt that most of the states realise that they had simply let this go just too far, and that if they had just reigned back, then all of us would be peacefully continuing to do what we all (well most of us) wanted to do and that was trade peacefully.

Jeff

BananaRepublic

uk1 wrote: »

What really saddens me about all this is I have no doubt that most of the states realise that they had simply let this go just too far, and that if they had just reigned back, then all of us would be peacefully continuing to do what we all (well most of us) wanted to do and that was trade peacefully.

Jeff

No, the central tenet of the EU is political, economic and perhaps military unification. My guess is that that is the key reason the UK rejected it, just a guess though.

mrginge

uk1 wrote: »

What really saddens me about all this is I have no doubt that most of the states realise that they had simply let this go just too far, and that if they had just reigned back, then all of us would be peacefully continuing to do what we all (well most of us) wanted to do and that was trade peacefully.

Jeff

Do the minimum and hope it goes away is standard policy for the EU. And you can't blame them, they have 28 interested parties LL with different concerns and priorities to deal with.

uk1

BananaRepublic wrote: »

No, the central tenet of the EU is political, economic and perhaps military unification. My guess is that that is the key reason the UK rejected it, just a guess though.

You are right, it was always the intent, but brexit and the EU fallout in terms of contagion potential has shocked the EU to the core, and is in the process of influencing and shaping the political sentiment and it is my sense that it is causing a rethinking. I know,.... a slow rethinking. To me our deal is wrapped up in how slowly or quickly the realisation morphs into a self survival instincts and adjustment to political trajectory.

It wouldn't surprise me if one leader, possibly even Merkel, says something along those lines. Perhaps she might simply say something along the lines of "Perhaps Brexit is voicing the feelings of many of the citizens of Europe and we must now listen and show that we are a true democracy and we can reflect their needs rather than the dreams of a few well intentioned centralist politicians."

I know this seems unlikely at the moment, but I think we are moving slowly towards it, and so whilst my heart wants us to trigger article 50 and get the whole thing over and done with, my head and "water" tells me that "slowly slowly catchee monkey" might be the most prudent approach.

In the end we all know that politicians share one instinct. Survival.

Jeff

uk1

mrginge wrote: »

Do the minimum and hope it goes away is standard policy for the EU. And you can't blame them, they have 28 interested parties LL with different concerns and priorities to deal with.

This isn't going to go away, and they are sensible people, whatever we may think.

What many people understand, perhaps even if only with the benefit and wisdom of hindsight, is that a single currency cannot work across states like the European states. At the moment there is a degree of denial even though we have Greece and other countries in non-compliance and should be "fined".

What is really scaring many in the EU is if the next exit is taken by a member of the Eurozone and all the upheaval that follows. That is why I think there is some genuine soul searching that might be to our eventual benefit.

Jeff

Thrugelmir

uk1 wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if one leader, possibly even Merkel, says something along those lines. Perhaps she might simply say something along the lines of "Perhaps Brexit is voicing the feelings of many of the citizens of Europe and we must now listen and show that we are a true democracy and we can reflect their needs rather than the dreams of a few well intentioned centralist politicians."

With a German general election looming in September 2017 who knows what stance she may take. Without the UK's net contribution to the pot. Germany will in line to pick up an even greater share. The EU can only work if the rich northern countries are prepared to subsidise the rest.

BananaRepublic

uk1 wrote: »

You are right, it was always the intent, but brexit and the EU fallout in terms of contagion potential has shocked the EU to the core, and is in the process of influencing and shaping the political sentiment and it is my sense that it is causing a rethinking. I know,.... a slow rethinking. To me our deal is wrapped up in how slowly or quickly the realisation morphs into a self survival instincts and adjustment to political trajectory.

It wouldn't surprise me if one leader, possibly even Merkel, says something along those lines. Perhaps she might simply say something along the lines of "Perhaps Brexit is voicing the feelings of many of the citizens of Europe and we must now listen and show that we are a true democracy and we can reflect their needs rather than the dreams of a few well intentioned centralist politicians."

I know this seems unlikely at the moment, but I think we are moving slowly towards it, and so whilst my heart wants us to trigger article 50 and get the whole thing over and done with, my head and "water" tells me that "slowly slowly catchee monkey" might be the most prudent approach.

In the end we all know that politicians share one instinct. Survival.

Jeff

I do not share your optimism. Too many cooks spoil the broth, and you have each head of state having to reach agreement to influence the EU. It is a juggernaut with no brakes.

doe808

For those interested in trade tariffs, this is a pretty easy to follow interactive map from the WTO

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/statis_maps_e.htm