Debt ridden family from hell

hign10pines

Make sure they don't get her to write any part of a new property to them in her will.

moneyistooshorttomention

Yorkshire_Midge wrote: »

@Paddys Mum - I reiterate, the one thing these two are certainly not is stupid. These are ostensibly, respectable and friendly members of the community, and if you met them, you'd think what a lovely family they are. It takes a particular level of deviousness, lying and manipulation to keep that impression up for so long. As I made clear on the very first post, we can barely touch them legally.


You're all worried about them getting to the rest of the money before MiL locks them out of the account. I'm not that worried - they wouldn't dare touch it illegally. The mere fact I'm involved now will frighten and unnerve them as I'm the one they can't bully no matter how hard they try.


The reason husband will have gone so quiet from his vicious tirade on a couple of women the other night, is he didn't initially realise I was even there, let alone listening to every single expletive and insult, until it was too late. That's also why I wasn't as concerned as you might expect by MiL deciding she was going back there the same evening and tough it out. I knew he'd be sat there kicking himself that he'd done it right in front of me, and bricking himself wondering what I was going to do next. Trust me when I say he won't be having a restful holiday.

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They will be wary of you I'm sure (I suspect you are much like me - cautious to a fault with money. The less scrupulous know we have them sussed and we are strong/will take firm action against them and it's not wise to cross us). We are a good deal stronger than your MIL though. You can see through them - and they know it and this will make them more cautious of you (as they can see you are both honest and strong enough to fight them). But - it is as well to bear in mind MIL is in a situation not dissimilar from being a battered wife in effect - in that I dont suppose they are actually using physical violence against her - but I'd be willing to bet a lot of their tactics are pretty similar. I would echo the fact MIL may not have told you everything yet. I would echo the fact that she may yet weaken and let them exploit her some more.

I do wonder how come they have access to her bank account - as a previous poster said "This is not the norm". The norm is probably more like that of my own parents (ie I know they have a bank account and which bank its with - but, beyond that, I havent the foggiest idea how much they have in it and couldnt access it if I tried. All I know is that, knowing my mother, it won't be in overdraft).

I would think they are most likely to try a fake apology to her and more "wheedling their way" round her - but don't put it past them to actively steal money from her account (as they know very well you would certainly report them for it - but she might well not do so). I think there is a real risk they WILL help themselves and make some excuse to her that they were desperate (eg some financial emergency happened) and they knew she wouldnt mind really and they will pay it back "honest injun" and she forgives them - again. She might not even tell you. She's blown up at them now and told you a lot of what has been going on - but she may not have told you everything/she may not tell you anything further they get up to.

Yorkshire_Midge

@boler - sorry, I wasn't being dismissive of the idea. The personalities involved would just hate to find themselves sat in front of an impartial individual and having to explain themselves. I'd be happy to bring a mediator in right now.

@hign10 - in the unlikely event any property purchase is involved, it will be in our name not MiLs and it would be on a formal footing with her paying a nominal rent or something. They can't emotionally blackmail me, though they would certainly have a damn good try at my wife as they know she'd struggle to fight back.

moneyistooshorttomention

Stay strong Yorkshire M.

It's clear you are doing your best to sort this out and make sure you protect your wife. Its clear you are trying to help MIL (because she is your wife's mother and you know your wife wants her mother protected).

Yorkshire_Midge

@moneyistoo - mil is not what you'd call "of the Internet generation". She doesnt know the password or I'd have been straight in to lock them out. I bet this sort of thing isn't as unusual as you might think given the good rates for online accounts and the fact many folk of her generation just don't do modern technology. What IS unusual in this case is she risked it with these two. It's looking from a discussion last night that only some of the remaining cash is in this account anyway.

Thanks. Busy day ahead......

moneyistooshorttomention

Ah right - I can see how they managed this in that case from what you say.

My own parents just dont have the Internet and don't want to know about all the "comparison shopping" etc we take for granted. I know what you mean - having tried (unsuccessfully) to persuade my parents to shop around for new fuel providers the other day (ie when my mother complained about how much its costing her for fuel). Their savings (however much that is...) are just left there in a typical building society account from what I can make out (oh well....at least they are safe against everything - apart from zilch interest on them....).

paddy's_mum

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

she may yet weaken and let them exploit her some more.

OP - this ^^^^ is the lurking danger.

moneyistooshorttomention

While she is under their roof - she is vulnerable. Well - lets face it - she is vulnerable whatever. However, its all the more so whilst she is under their roof.

If someone controls/thinks they control all your "comings and goings" and is in a ringside seat to see what you're doing - then that doesnt bode well for MIL.

Yorkshire_Midge

@paddysmum - agreed, but I think the risk is manageable, certainly in the short term, for two reasons.

1. Husband has pretty much had it I reckon. If he ever gets in mil's good books again, trust me, it will take years not days. Mil isn't very forgiving of anyone who crosses her.

2. He doesn't do apologies, and even if he's backed into a corner and does one hell of a grovelling job now to try and limit the damage, mil will make him apologise to me and my wife and it would absolutely choke him to have to do that.

The risk is more likely that she might eventually forgive my sister-in-law but that isn't actually very likely as she's been nearly as bad. Plus she keeps tripping over her big mouth and making matters worse.

@moneyistooshort - agreed, our view hasn't changed that she is better off out of there no matter how tough she is willing to be.

Guest101

Yorkshire_Midge wrote: »

The situation is my sister-in-law and husband got themselves into serious debt some years back. Entirely their own fault - they simply can't stop themselves spending lavishly on their kids when they simply don't have the income to support it. Music lessons, horse riding lessons, lots of presents etc etc.


Having had several five figure bail outs from my mother-in-law, they decided the solution was she had to sell her lovely retirement flat and move in with them on the promise of an extention being built for her. That was nearly two years ago and no sign of the extension. They just shoved her in a poky little room off their lounge which they used to use as an office, which you can barely get a single bed in.


The other night, they decided to throw her out - so my wife and I went around to try and sort things out. The husband was the most aggresive, vile and sick b*stard imaginable - telling my mother-in-law she was disgusting, to f-off, p-off etc etc. This was all played out in front of his youngest child. It was probably the most diabolical and disgraceful behaviour I have ever witnessed of an individual in my life.


Now you might wonder what my mother-in-law's crime was, and it was basically to start applying the pressure on her unacceptable accomodation, and also to stand up to the husbands long standing bullying and controlling behavior - which included banning us from visiting my mother-in-law in HIS house.


My sister-in-law was all in tears trying to get us to take my mother-in-law to our place out of her husbands way, which sounds reasonable until you realise she is a controlling, manipulative little bully herself, and by all accounts has been nearly as bad as him when out of our sight - and to her OWN mother! Mother-in-law is back in their house - but the atmosphere is terrible. Sister-in-law/husband haven't given her one word of apology, her grandchildren have obviously been told to ignore her.


We have since established that the amount of money my mother-in-law has left will barely cover the cost of the extension - so they have cleared her out of something approaching £140,000 in two years.


You might also be wondering what WE were doing to influence my mother-in-law not to do this in the first place given their history with debt - and the answer is the sister-in-law and husband took a minor family disagreement between us and them, which was was originally sorted out in half an hour nearly four years ago, and turned it into a long running feud - setting my mother-in-law against us to the point she was barely talking to us let alone confiding in us. This including completely fabricating stories to try and discredit me with my mother-in-law and paint me as the nasty piece of work. We now know WHY of course - it was to hide the five figure bail outs they were taking off her back then, and to make it easier to get her out of her flat for the the bigger prize, with us conveniently out the way.


In terms of her rights as a tenant, we don't think she has a leg to stand on. No tenancy agreement, and she shares the bathroom and other house facilities so has no more rights than a lodger as far as we can tell. The money hasn't been syphoned/stolen - she knew what she was doing, and did it for the sake of the grandchildren.


As I write this, mother-in-law is sitting downstairs after a tearful Easter Sunday lunch with us two, whilst the family from hell head off on a nice little holiday. These filthy parasites make me sick to my stomach.

We think our options are as follows:


1. We force them to put their house up for sale, and use the equity in it to at least partially pay for something for her and we try and top it up from our savings. They would then have to rent. - Unlikely to be successful. Cost you tens of thousands to find out.


2. We force them to evict her and explain themselves to the council and ask for her to re-homed. - They wont need to explain themselves to the council, at all. In anyway. She'll probably end up somewhere which is not very nice, and although she now realises how incredibly foolish she has been, its such a dramatic drop from the lovely retirement flat she had, I doubt she will ever adjust. Doesn't sit comfortably with us either.


3. We take her in, which we are reluctant to do on principle, as we have never taken one single penny off my mother-in-law, and my wife isn't in the best of health either so my priority has to be to care for her. My mother-in-law is also partially blind so her needs will increase. - So this is about principles rather than safety, stability and family.


4. We re-house her, which would pretty much clear us out of our own savings and put our own retirement plans at risk. Why should we when we have managed our money carefully all our lives, and they have been reckless and irresponsible with money all of theirs? - Family, that's why.


5. The extension gets built (with us having to top up as necessary) and hope that if it maintains enough separation (i.e. own door etc.) it might reduce the husbands foul behaviour to manageable levels. i.e. it becomes like living with the neighbour from hell, rather than under the same roof as one. Problem here is we can see the chances of them getting into debt again in future must be quite high - so she remains at risk from them being repossessed. - It wont happen.


Option number 1 is undoubtedly the moral and correct thing for them to do, and there is a certain sense of justice being done that they should loose THEIR house as punishment for what they have done. Unfortunately, they will punish my mother-in-law mercilessly if this happens. It will without any shadow of a doubt be the last time she ever sees her grandchildren (they have track record in using them as a weapon).

So to my questions finally!

1. Even though she has no rights as a tenant, my feeling is a verbal contract was formed over them providing a proper extension for her, so they are in breach of it. Anyone with any experience of verbal contracts like to comment on this? - Not a chance of enforcing this.

2. If she goes ahead with the extension (option 5) is it feasible to add her to their deeds as a fractional owner (her share would be 15% approx), with the caveat that she is paid out in FULL if the house is sold or repossessed, and they get whatever is left. There is no negative equity risk. - You cant force it, and they don't sound stupid enough to do it.

Thanks!

You seem to think you have much more of a say, than you (legally) do.