The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

... Scotland is out of the Single Market by doing nothing anyway...

Told you so.:)

Shakethedisease wrote: »

As I've stated before. The next indy ref....

Only Parliament (the one in Westminster) can legislate for an independence referendum. The boys and girls and Holyrood might be able to organise some kind of vote; that will depend (if it comes to that) on what the Supreme Court has to say about it.

But nobody has to take any notice of it, whatever the result.

.string.

A number of issues:

The signs are all there that Theresa May will not agree to a new Independence Referendum There has just been one and there is only SNP spin that says that Scottish Opinion on the EU as expressed in the EU Referendum equates to a wish to leave the UK.

An independence referendum can hardly be held under Scottish Government responsibility without being challenged in the Courts, so resort would have to be made to a wording which could not be construed as being an interdependence referendum and could be boycotted without consequence.

In any case, having a referendum at this time would damage the negotiations and while the SNP might be hugely pleased to act as wrecker, they will be reminded time and time again that they are wrecking the future of the Union that most Scots voted for and will be living in.

The SNP tries to present the choice as being between staying or being in the EU or staying in the UK. The first is a hoped for fiction; the second is reality.

An interesting twist is that now May is the one offering a bright new future with exciting possibilities, whereas the SNP has to conduct a fear campaign denigrating the very qualities in the UK as a whole (ie including Scotland) which they had previously extolled as the superhuman Scottish Virtues in being able to go it alone last time around. Instead the SNP wants to submerge Scotland in the same old same old with no certainty of achieving that any time soon.

In summary, enter the BORING SNP - no exciting magic in that. Staid old SNP against a forward looking UK adventure. No popcorn fest watching there for the nationalist.

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

A number of issues:

The signs are all there that Theresa May will not agree to a new Independence Referendum There has just been one and there is only SNP spin that says that Scottish Opinion on the EU as expressed in the EU Referendum equates to a wish to leave the UK.

An independence referendum can hardly be held under Scottish Government responsibility without being challenged in the Courts, so resort would have to be made to a wording which could not be construed as being an interdependence referendum and could be boycotted without consequence.

In any case, having a referendum at this time would damage the negotiations and while the SNP might be hugely pleased to act as wrecker, they will be reminded time and time again that they are wrecking the future of the Union that most Scots voted for.

The SNP tries to present the choice as being between staying or being in the EU or staying in the UK. The first is a hoped for fiction; the second is reality.

An interesting twist is that now May is the one offering a bright new future with exciting possibilities, whereas the SNP has to conduct a fear campaign denigrating the very qualities in the UK as a whole (ie including Scotland) which they had previously extolled as the superhuman Scottish Virtues in being able to go it alone last time around. Instead the SNP wants to submerge Scotland in the same old same old with no certainty of achieving that any time soon.

In summary, enter the BORING SNP - no exciting magic in that. Staid old SNP against a forward looking UK adventure. No popcorn fest watching there for the nationalist.

Anyone who doesn't want a new referendum or doesn't want to leave the UK can just choose not to take part in the mickey mouse referendum some on here claim the SNP will hold regardless of Westminster. It wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the electorate didn't turn out for it. Imagine a 30% turnout with 100% for Yes :rotfl:.

Shakethedisease

antrobus wrote: »

Told you so.:)

Only Parliament (the one in Westminster) can legislate for an independence referendum. The boys and girls and Holyrood might be able to organise some kind of vote; that will depend (if it comes to that) on what the Supreme Court has to say about it.

But nobody has to take any notice of it, whatever the result.

Yes if needed they'll organise some kind of vote, Scotland wide which will ask the Scottish people for permission yes/no to entering into negotiations with the UK govt about independence or full 100% Devo max ( independence ). In other words a referendum.

Either that or they'll dissolve the Scottish Govt and call a Scottish election, citing independence in their manifesto. As will the Greens with Scottish Labour backing 95% Devo-max. But in order to boost independence support sky high it would definitely be best for May to be asked and then airily dismiss a request for a referendum first. <--This I personally approve of wholeheartedly.

Whatever happens, 100% cast iron guarantee Scotland won't be leaving the Single Market without 'some kind of vote' first. And you can look back at this post when I say 'told you' when some kind of vote is called. Advisory votes in Scotland originating from Holyrood that only involve Scottish votes don't need legislated for in Westminster. Only the result will if it's a Yes.

Notwithstanding the restrictions on the Scottish Government’s devolved competence contained in the Scotland Act 1998, no-one disputes that it can lawfully make proposals to, or hold conversations or enter into negotiations with, the United Kingdom Government about (i) altering the constitutional position of Scotland or (ii) widening the devolved powers of the Scottish Government and Parliament (including amending or removing some or all of the matters reserved to the United Kingdom which are set out in Schedule 5 of the Act).

That being the case, it is inconceivable that any court would hold that it was beyond the legal power of the Scottish Government to promote legislation to enable it to consult the Scottish electorate (by means of a referendum) about whether the Scottish Government should or should not make such proposals to, or hold such conversations or enter into such negotiations with, the Government of the United Kingdom. This is reinforced by section 101(2) of the 1998 Act which provides that any provision of an Act of the Scottish Parliament is “to be read as narrowly as is required for it to be within competence, if such a reading is possible, and is to have effect accordingly”.

That does not, of course, exclude the possibility that referendum legislation might be challenged, as being beyond the Scottish Parliament’s powers, in the courts of Scotland and all the way to the UK Supreme Court. But any such challenge would be doomed to failure.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes if needed they'll organise some kind of vote, Scotland wide which will ask the Scottish people for permission yes/no to entering into negotiations with the UK govt about independence or full 100% Devo max ( independence ). In other words a referendum.

Either that or they'll dissolve the Scottish Govt and call a Scottish election, citing independence in their manifesto. As will the Greens with Scottish Labour backing 95% Devo-max. But in order to boost independence support sky high it would definitely be best for May to be asked and then airily dismiss a request for a referendum first. <--This I personally approve of wholeheartedly.

Whatever happens, 100% cast iron guarantee Scotland won't be leaving the Single Market without 'some kind of vote' first. And you can look back at this post when I say 'told you' when some kind of vote is called. Advisory votes in Scotland originating from Holyrood that only involve Scottish votes don't need legislated for in Westminster. Only the result will if it's a Yes.

if you are confident of winning an Iscotland referendum then why isn't Nicola demanding one NOW :
what the hell has brexit got to do with it, if you can get INDEPENDENCE instead.

only ONE possible reason.

mrginge

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes if needed they'll organise some kind of vote, Scotland wide which will ask the Scottish people for permission yes/no to entering into negotiations with the UK govt about independence or full 100% Devo max ( independence ). In other words a referendum.

Either that or they'll dissolve the Scottish Govt and call a Scottish election, citing independence in their manifesto. As will the Greens with Scottish Labour backing 95% Devo-max. But in order to boost independence support sky high it would definitely be best for May to be asked and then airily dismiss a request for a referendum first. <--This I personally approve of wholeheartedly.

Whatever happens, 100% cast iron guarantee Scotland won't be leaving the Single Market without 'some kind of vote' first. And you can look back at this post when I say 'told you' when some kind of vote is called. Advisory votes in Scotland originating from Holyrood that only involve Scottish votes don't need legislated for in Westminster. Only the result will if it's a Yes.

No need for dithering shakey, now is the time.
You know May's requirements and you know she'll take no deal over a bad one.
Why take the risk that she'll pull off a blinder and scupper your dreams forever?

Do it now while the chance is there.

Do it.

Tell Nicola to get on with it.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

A number of issues:

The signs are all there that Theresa May will not agree to a new Independence Referendum There has just been one and there is only SNP spin that says that Scottish Opinion on the EU as expressed in the EU Referendum equates to a wish to leave the UK.

An independence referendum can hardly be held under Scottish Government responsibility without being challenged in the Courts, so resort would have to be made to a wording which could not be construed as being an interdependence referendum and could be boycotted without consequence.

In any case, having a referendum at this time would damage the negotiations and while the SNP might be hugely pleased to act as wrecker, they will be reminded time and time again that they are wrecking the future of the Union that most Scots voted for and will be living in.

The SNP tries to present the choice as being between staying or being in the EU or staying in the UK. The first is a hoped for fiction; the second is reality.

An interesting twist is that now May is the one offering a bright new future with exciting possibilities, whereas the SNP has to conduct a fear campaign denigrating the very qualities in the UK as a whole (ie including Scotland) which they had previously extolled as the superhuman Scottish Virtues in being able to go it alone last time around. Instead the SNP wants to submerge Scotland in the same old same old with no certainty of achieving that any time soon.

In summary, enter the BORING SNP - no exciting magic in that. Staid old SNP against a forward looking UK adventure. No popcorn fest watching there for the nationalist.

It's not the boring SNP. It's the boring Scottish public.

You speak like you would have found it perfectly acceptable for the EU to tell the UK that they couldn't hold a referendum on membership without the EU's permission because it would be inconvenient for them. With respect string, just listen to yourself droning on like countries in political unions should shut up and do what they're told by the larger entity every time. Things don't work like that.

Here's the biggest and most widely read Labour leaning newspaper in Scotland for tomorrow's edition. The publishers of the Vow. Not even they think this is an... exciting time. They're livid. Let's hope a lot of their Labour voting No voting older readers get a load of this when they pick up their morning paper.

Anti-Tory the one bandwagon recently that they really can jump onto with gusto and it seems they're going to. A message that resonates loud and clear as always with the Scottish public. Most especially with traditional old school Labour voters.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

if you are confident of winning an Iscotland referendum then why isn't Nicola demanding one NOW :
what the hell has brexit got to do with it, if you can get INDEPENDENCE instead.

only ONE possible reason.

May needs to rule out a deal for Scotland first, Article 50 needs triggered and then things need to play out for a short time. May put out a wish list and opening stance today. It remains to be seen what the EU will counter with.

If you knew Scottish politics, and this is the only politics that concerns Sturgeon since she sits at Holyrood not Westminster, then you'd know that if she makes a move now other parties would be red in the face, all over the media, on every Scottish/UK tv news program 24/7 bleating about how she'd jumped the gun and that if she'd only waited Scotland would've/could've gotten a Scottish deal, how terrible it is that we missed out due to Sturgeon not waiting to see, how bad are the SNP for going for independence when Westminster would've/could've agreed blah blah.

Nope, this needs to play out for a bit yet. May needs to close ALL and every single one of any other options down for Scotland and Scottish voters herself. 100% close them down ( which to be fair she's doing well at so far ). And she needs to trigger Article 50 with the EU laying out their red lines too.

Until then, Sturgeon just needs to sit back for a while and watch the show like the rest of us. May will deliver the next ref or 'some kind of vote' without Sturgeon lifting a finger.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

May needs to rule out a deal for Scotland first, Article 50 needs triggered and then things need to play out for a short time. May put out a wish list and opening stance today. It remains to be seen what the EU will counter with.

If you knew Scottish politics, and this is the only politics that concerns Sturgeon since she sits at Holyrood not Westminster, then you'd know that if she makes a move now other parties would be red in the face, all over the media, on every Scottish/UK tv news program 24/7 bleating about how she'd jumped the gun and that if she'd only waited Scotland would've/could've gotten a Scottish deal, how terrible it is that we missed out due to Sturgeon not waiting to see, how bad are the SNP for going for independence when Westminster would've/could've agreed blah blah.

Nope, this needs to play out for a bit yet. May needs to close ALL and every single one of any other options down for Scotland and Scottish voters herself. 100% close them down ( which to be fair she's doing well at so far ). And she needs to trigger Article 50 with the EU laying out their red lines too.

Until then, Sturgeon just needs to sit back for a while and watch the show like the rest of us. May will deliver the next ref or 'some kind of vote' without Sturgeon lifting a finger.

is this some childish game?
you do want to be independent or not?

or aren't the scottish people ready yet.

mrginge

CLAPTON wrote: »

is this some childish game?
you do want to be independent or not?

or aren't the scottish people ready yet.

I can only conclude that Shakey thinks the Scottish electorate are stupid.