The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I don't believe people when they say they are 'lifelong' independence campaigners. But say they'd vote No next time. It doesn't make any sense. Especially at the present time where most lifelong independence supporters main stance for their entire voting lifetime..was getting Scotland away from possible right wing Tory governments, and an increasingly right wing leaning Labour party under Blair etc.

They either want Scottish independence or they don't. And if they don't want it now, then they probably never really have. The EU is a secondary issue among others. The Brexit vote has only highlighted the gulf now between Scottish and rUK voters in very stark terms.

I've known this person for over 20 years, they were previously a SNP councillor and have actively campaigned for the SNP for longer than I have known them, I have no reason to disbelieve her ... I was a tad surprised to hear it from her, I did think she would say when push comes to shove she would vote yes ... but she said when push comes to shove she would vote no

She also said she isn't alone and Sturgeon has to remember that one third of SNP voted out ... it was an interesting discussion held in a supermarket

TrickyTree83

I know you think I'm wrong about the SNP tainting the EU ref vote in Scotland, so lets put it another way.

What happens if I'm not wrong (as you think) and that I'm correct? That in the EU remain vote there were people who voted to remain with independence in mind, but not all of the remain vote shared that perspective, that some wanted to remain in the EU and also want to remain in the UK. Nicola and the SNP could well be launching you into another independence referendum campaign without the backing you need to succeed. Alongside all of the other corroborating evidence that independence is a bad idea, as evident by the desperate "get rid of the Tories" mantra, could well see you witnessing two independence campaign failures in 3-4 years which will destroy the idea for a very long time, the hiatus probably out living most of us on here.

Do you really want to run that risk? Should you not prepare a proper case for independence as a nation on your own two feet rather than joined at the hip to the EU?

The political landscape isn't an excuse, as No voters will tell you that is a situation purely of your own making. A regional party can never win power in Westminster, a fact Sturgeon has allegedly admitted recently in her consideration to put forward SNP candidates across the rest of the country.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Can I be very frank and upfront with you ? I imagine they're loooong past, if ever, caring about what voters in the rUK like you think about them. You're simply not a factor.

Do voters in Scotland count then?

I'm pretty sure they know that the SNP manipulated the EU ref vote and deceive the Scottish electorate. You only need to look on this thread to know that many in Scotland (the majority probably) know the SNP to be manipulative and deceitful.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Nope.



And anyway, there's a lot of focus shifting from the EU to EEA/EFTA and following whatever the rUK does regarding a customs union or not to ensure UK trade continues as is. This 'trade/border' mantra needs to die a very quick and horrible death in the lead up to the next indy ref. <--- I agree with elantan, one is just about unavoidable now. Sturgeon has nothing to lose, Scotland is out of the Single Market by doing nothing anyway. She might as well go for it and see what happens.

Where did those maps come from? Can we add the independence campaign to the manipulative and deceitful list?

Even a casual follower of current affairs will know those maps are a blatant lie.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I know you think I'm wrong about the SNP tainting the EU ref vote in Scotland, so lets put it another way.

What happens if I'm not wrong (as you think) and that I'm correct? That in the EU remain vote there were people who voted to remain with independence in mind, but not all of the remain vote shared that perspective, that some wanted to remain in the EU and also want to remain in the UK. Nicola and the SNP could well be launching you into another independence referendum campaign without the backing you need to succeed. Alongside all of the other corroborating evidence that independence is a bad idea, as evident by the desperate "get rid of the Tories" mantra, could well see you witnessing two independence campaign failures in 3-4 years which will destroy the idea for a very long time, the hiatus probably out living most of us on here.

Do you really want to run that risk? Should you not prepare a proper case for independence as a nation on your own two feet rather than joined at the hip to the EU?

The political landscape isn't an excuse, as No voters will tell you that is a situation purely of your own making. A regional party can never win power in Westminster, a fact Sturgeon has allegedly admitted recently in her consideration to put forward SNP candidates across the rest of the country.

Alex started from less than 25% Nicola is starting from considerably more

I do believe people did vote remain so they could get indy, I also think people voted leave so they didn't have indy ... I know people voted for indy that want out and there are people that voted remain that want to stay in the UK

It's one of the reasons having indy ref on the back of an EU ref is a bad idea... but we are where we are ... there is a lot of work to do ( on both sides) to convince the people of Scotland ...

Shakethedisease

elantan wrote: »

I've known this person for over 20 years, they were previously a SNP councillor and have actively campaigned for the SNP for longer than I have known them, I have no reason to disbelieve her ... I was a tad surprised to hear it from her, I did think she would say when push comes to shove she would vote yes ... but she said when push comes to shove she would vote no

She also said she isn't alone and Sturgeon has to remember that one third of SNP voted out ... it was an interesting discussion held in a supermarket

I know she's not alone sadly. But voting No on the basis of the EU preferring instead to stay in a UK with the Conservatives in charge, rather than Yes on the basis of an independent Scotland choosing it's own path re the EU etc.

Nah. Cobblers ( from her ), and doesn't make the faintest iota of sense after spending a lifetime campaigning for Scottish independence. Putting caveats on it now is a bit strange. Each to their own an all that but at the end of the day if your biggest priority is suddenly being out to the EU over a lifetime's campaigning on Scottish independence... Then one has to wonder just how strong the desire for independence is in the first place.

She'd be right though absolutely on a personal basis to vote No next time if her priority is indeed to be out of the EU over everything else ( including indy ). But folks like this lady really do have to admit to themselves that their priorities aren't and haven't been SNP related. Sturgeon and the SNP have always been perfectly upfront with their pro-EU/Independence views.

No - Yes. Yes - No. A lot of churn in the middle of that. I reckon Sturgeon will perhaps go for a third option in order to bring those Yes - No's back on side. We'll see. :cool:

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

Alex started from less than 25% Nicola is starting from considerably more

I do believe people did vote remain so they could get indy, I also think people voted leave so they didn't have indy ... I know people voted for indy that want out and there are people that voted remain that want to stay in the UK

It's one of the reasons having indy ref on the back of an EU ref is a bad idea... but we are where we are ... there is a lot of work to do ( on both sides) to convince the people of Scotland ...

If a referendum was to happen, it should be after the outcome of negotiations are known.

Nicola won't do that. She will be asking Scots to decide between the unknown in the EU and the unknown in the UK. I'm confident May will not allow that and the referendum (if it does happen) will happen at a time which Westminster agrees with, and not before.

elantan

I think she will have to, it should have been on the paper last time as well Cameron messed up there I reckon

I can understand you being puzzled by her and questioning her beliefs if I hadn't known her for as long and known how much she campaigned throughout that time I would have done so myself

There is a lot of churn just now and I really wish it was more simplified and idy wasn't dependent on the back of a Brexit vote ... but I will take indy any way I can get it

mrginge

Clearly if the balance of opinion for independence was going to be tipped, then today is that day.

No doubt now that the SM is going and that Nicola's plan for a 'special arrangement' has been politely declined in favour of a rather unwelcome call for unity across the entire UK.

So perhaps we'll see over the next few polls whether the SNP are really on to something or just a busted flush.

elantan

Tricky Sadly thanks to the mess up of the Brexit vote and the fact life is much easier if we stay ... the next vote will need to be whilst we are still in ... use your head here we dont trust WM anymore ... next they would say ohhh you need to give it ten years till we really know how it's gonna affect us ... then it will be no you can't get back in ...


I do believe though it should be approx 18months after article 50 so we can have a good idea of how the lay of the land will look upon leaving