The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

antrobus wrote: »

Is the correct answer.

Individual countries can’t veto a treaty governing the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, but could veto a treaty establishing Britain’s new relationship with the EU.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-veto-brexit-deal/

Since Scotland is part of the UK, then the UK will be doing the negotiating. Sturgeon has asked May to put these proposals forward during Article 50 talks assuming Scotland stays/is part of the UK.

UK final deal for these proposals would include Scotland as part of the UK. No separate deal is required. Just substantial devolution of powers internally should May and the EU agree.

Spain does not have a veto on the final UK wide deal as Article 50 is passed by qualified majority. 20 out of 27 required.

Should Scotland leave the UK and withdraw itself from UK negotiations, there is also a case to be made that by remaining... rather than leaving via Article 50 along with the UK. That this also would only need a qualified majority for approval rather than a new accession procedure via Article 49. New accessions however, have not under normal circumstances, been members already for the last 40 years and just voted to remain with a large majority %. Is an unprecedented situation.

The important thing here for a hypothetical independent Scotland is whether any future EU discussions are deemed to come under Article 50 ( qualified majority, Scotland remains) or Article 49 ( all 27 members agree new accession, Scotland as new member ).

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've not looked at the claim you make about the qualified majority voting.

But let's assume you're right for a moment, you still need the votes, did that escape you?

You put it across as though, purely because you believe there to be no veto, that you're home and dry.

Obviously not.

I made no assertation nor assumption. However, is safe to say that the links posted here re Scotland and Sturgeon's proposals have it wrong in theirs re Spain holding a veto.

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.

That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Merry Christmas everybody.

Tragic events in my family mean that I will be absent for a while.

So sorry to hear this string. Thoughts are with you and yours. C xxx

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Since Scotland is part of the UK, then the UK will be doing the negotiating. Sturgeon has asked May to put these proposals forward during Article 50 talks assuming Scotland stays/is part of the UK....

But Sturgeon has neglected to state what she (or Scotland if you prefer) is prepared to offer May in return. Neither has any information been provided as to what Scotland is prepared to offer the EU.

No more free lunches.

Time to put the money on the table.:)

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...UK final deal for these proposals would include Scotland as part of the UK. No separate deal is required. Just substantial devolution of powers internally should May and the EU agree. ....

And what's you best offer?:)

I might be prepared to consider it if Scotland agreed to take on £150 bn plus of debt and an end to the annual £8 bn subsidy.

TrickyTree83

antrobus wrote: »

And what's you best offer?:)

I might be prepared to consider it if Scotland agreed to take on £150 bn plus of debt and an end to the annual £8 bn subsidy.

Precisely, Scotland already has special status in the UK.

There are no arguements left that support an independent Scotland that make economic or political sense anymore. Nicola has rolled the dice and had her position found wanting. As much as the indy support on here would like to say otherwise it would appear Sturgeon is not experienced or wise enough to pull off the lies from the indy camp. She will of course be supported as fervently as ever by the die hards, being honest the calamities are piling up, as are polls, as is evidence against independence. It's a bleak future for a movement based on untruths and deceit.

Good.

Happy new year.

mollycat

Good post TT; 100% spot on as usual

Happy New Year to all who believe in truth and democracy!

Enterprise_1701C

antrobus wrote: »

But Sturgeon has neglected to state what she (or Scotland if you prefer) is prepared to offer May in return. Neither has any information been provided as to what Scotland is prepared to offer the EU.

No more free lunches.

Time to put the money on the table.:)

Have you forgotten, sturgeon is a toddler, she wants everything her way and throws the toys out of the pram if it goes the wrong way. She does not want to give anything in return, she wants it all. What she would really like is every penny the UK government has so she can hide it all away, then she would compain't it was not enough.

What I find quite funny is that she thinks it fair for an 8 million population to dictate to the rest of the UK yet considers it unfair that a majority vote across the whole of the UK went against her wishes.

All she needs to do is open the independence vote to the whole of the UK, the vote would go massively in her favour, problem is if she managed to get independence then she would have nothing to complain about so it is probably the last thing she wants.

antrobus

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Have you forgotten, sturgeon is a toddler, she wants everything her way and throws the toys out of the pram if it goes the wrong way. She does not want to give anything in return, she wants it all. What she would really like is every penny the UK government has so she can hide it all away, then she would compain't it was not enough....

Sturgeon is simply trying to engineer a situation where she can blame the UK government for Scotland's departure from the EU, and thereby persuade Scotland's voters to change their minds on independence.

That's why she does not want to give anything in return, it is not a serious proposal, merely some political kite flying. The last thing she wants is for Scotland's voters is to actually think about the economics. Otherwise people might wonder why it is that ending an economic union with a block that takes £12 billion of your exports is going to result in disaster, but ending an economic union with a another block that takes £76 billion of your exports will bring forth only sweetness and light.

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

..What I find quite funny is that she thinks it fair for an 8 million population to dictate to the rest of the UK yet considers it unfair that a majority vote across the whole of the UK went against her wishes....

It's only 5.3 million people. But you are right, much of what the SNP has to say has nothing more than entertainment value.

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

..All she needs to do is open the independence vote to the whole of the UK, the vote would go massively in her favour, problem is if she managed to get independence then she would have nothing to complain about so it is probably the last thing she wants.

Don't be silly. She would still blame the UK, and complain about how unfair it was that the subsidy had come to an end.

elantan

I personally don't see why she has to give something in return ... Scotland voted to remain ... she is just doing her job and looking out for what the majority of the people of Scotland voted for