The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

ash28

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Theresa May is going to spend two years on her's, plus another 9 months before that... only for Spain to veto the UK's leaving deal because of Gibraltar leaving the Single Market.

There will be no drawing board for the UK. Out you go anyway.

Seen ex Labour MP's on LabourHame, the Daily Record editor and the Times Scottish editor all tweeting today about this and how May shouldn't dismiss Sturgeon's proposals out of hand. The tide's definitely on the turn with Scottish Labour and in some large sections of the media. Penny finally dropping.

Daily Record EditorMay should agree with Sturgeon and leave it for the EU to dismiss ( or not). That would be the sensible thing to do. Only....

Spain have already dismissed Sturgeon's plan as I'm sure you know.

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/spain-rejects-nicola-sturgeons-plan-scotland-stay-single-market.

Jorge Toledo, the Spanish secretary of state for the European Union, said: “If the UK leaves the single market, the whole UK will leave the single market. There is only one negotiator, the UK government.”
Sturgeon, who would need to get her plan signed off by all 27 remaining EU members for it to be actioned, has already faced stiff opposition from Spain.

Though I'm sure that came as no surprise to the SNP. who appear to be using the "plan" as the reason for another referendum. Politically quite astute - Membership of EFTA is open to any state....Scotland is not an independent state.....EEA requires the approval of the 27 member states and the members of EFTA/EEA states - Spain has already rejected the SNP plan.

Next step I guess will be to blame "Westminster" and really push for a second referendum....though I suspect that this is part of SNP strategy going forward.

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Theresa May is going to spend two years on her's, plus another 9 months before that... only for Spain to veto the UK's leaving deal because of Gibraltar leaving the Single Market. ...

There will be no drawing board for the UK. Out you go anyway.

What is it about the statement "If the UK leaves the single market, the whole UK will leave the single market." that you don't understand?

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...Seen ex Labour MP's on LabourHame, the Daily Record editor and the Times Scottish editor all tweeting today about this and how May shouldn't dismiss Sturgeon's proposals out of hand. The tide's definitely on the turn with Scottish Labour and in some large sections of the media. Penny finally dropping. ....

Ex-Labour MPs tweeting eh.

How about one of "Sturgeon’s handpicked Brexit advisers".

Charles Grant, who sits on the First Minister’s Standing Council on Europe, said it was “extremely difficult” to see how her plans were legally, politically or technically feasible.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/nicola-sturgeon-brexit-adviser-pours-cold-water-single-market/

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...Daily Record EditorMay should agree with Sturgeon and leave it for the EU to dismiss ( or not). That would be the sensible thing to do. Only....

It has already been dismissed by the EU. You should pay more intention to the press and less to Twitter.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-summit-idUSKCN0ZF0LM

antrobus

ash28 wrote: »

...Though I'm sure that came as no surprise to the SNP. who appear to be using the "plan" as the reason for another referendum. ....

That's all it is.

ash28 wrote: »

....Next step I guess will be to blame "Westminster" and really push for a second referendum....though I suspect that this is part of SNP strategy going forward.

The hope is that;

(1) They can get another referendum
(2) They can get a different result second time around

LABMAN

If the SNP are so sure that the people of Scotland were misled in 2014 stop !!!!ing about and get on and announce an indyref 2 date NOW. Why haven't they? Apparently it was what they were voted in on? So get on and do it...should be easily passed?

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

As usual, you're just make stuff up or blindly believing Twitter drivel.
Spain (or any other state) cannot Veto the A50 deal, the agreement of 20 fellow EU states is required, no veto exists.

No, I know about the qualifying majority. I've posted about it here several times. It's why Spain cannot veto Scottish interests regarding this either. Sturgeon has asked for the proposal's for Scotland to be included in Article 50 talks.

Passing Article 50 is by qualified majority. Ergo, Spain doesn't have a veto on these proposals.

I wondered who would be the first to destroy their own argument here. But am glad you agree that the Telegraph, the Times etc and the links posted here are complete hogwash. So much better when someone else does it rather than myself on here.

Article 50 is by qualified majority. Spain does not have a veto on any final deal. Which also includes where Scotland ends up at the end of it.

Thank you !

ps I don't make things up. I just went fishing for a qualified majority post someone was bound to make to 'prove me wrong'.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Perhaps you would like to say which article refers to a European head of government or EU official actually agreeing with Sturgeons "plan". Perhaps I missed it but I saw nothing although I have to admit I did not look at the polish stuff. They were just reporting the "plan".

Next you are going to claim that Salmond had negotiations with all 27 countries presumably. Sorry, I mean 26 since that claim has already been made for Spain. That went well didn't it.

And that's only from the EU perspective, Sturgeons so-called plan is impractical from the point of view of it being a solution implementable within the UK which is what she claims.

Drivel it remains.

Don't need 27 for final deal. Just 20 as Moto2 kindly pointed out for everyone. Spain has no veto. However Sturgeon's proposals have been very widely reported on all over the EU. And quite positively too.

Carl Bildt Verified account ‏@carlbildt

Scotland today makes clear that it is determined to remain in the EU Single Market. Makes eminent economic sense. http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00512073.pdf …

Shakethedisease

antrobus wrote: »

What is it about the statement "If the UK leaves the single market, the whole UK will leave the single market." that you don't understand?

Ex-Labour MPs tweeting eh.

How about one of "Sturgeon’s handpicked Brexit advisers".

Charles Grant, who sits on the First Minister’s Standing Council on Europe, said it was “extremely difficult” to see how her plans were legally, politically or technically feasible.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/nicola-sturgeon-brexit-adviser-pours-cold-water-single-market/



It has already been dismissed by the EU. You should pay more intention to the press and less to Twitter.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-summit-idUSKCN0ZF0LM

It hasn't even been officially dismissed by Theresa May yet. And it's up to her to put it forward to the EU during negotiations.

You should pay more attention to twitter or you'd know this. I don't personally regard anything the Telegraph says regarding the SNP to be strictly truthful. And for Spain one must also keep remembering that their current stance is one while Scotland remains part of the UK. An independent Scotland is a different matter altogether for Spain and their internal politics. They've welcomed several newly independent states into the EU already. As long as it's constitutionally all above board they have no problems with newly independent countries. It's countries like Kosovo ( UDI ) they have a problem with.

Sturgeon has put her proposals to Theresa May, not the EU. She's left it up to May to put them forward after that. The sensible thing for May to do in these circumstances is to agree and put them forward and then let the EU dismiss them or not.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No, I know about the qualifying majority. I've posted about it here several times. It's why Spain cannot veto Scottish interests regarding this either. Sturgeon has asked for the proposal's for Scotland to be included in Article 50 talks.

Passing Article 50 is by qualified majority. Ergo, Spain doesn't have a veto on these proposals.

I wondered who would be the first to destroy their own argument here. But am glad you agree that the Telegraph, the Times etc and the links posted here are complete hogwash. So much better when someone else does it rather than myself on here.

Article 50 is by qualified majority. Spain does not have a veto on any final deal. Which also includes where Scotland ends up at the end of it.

Thank you !

ps I don't make things up. I just went fishing for a qualified majority post someone was bound to make to 'prove me wrong'.

If you say so

Any separate deal for Scotland won't be part of A50, it would need to go to the full membership after the UK has left the EU and Spain (or others) certainly would have a veto on it.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

She has a duty to represent ALL Scots, including the voters who did not express a preference in the EU vote.

You keep ignoring these voters when you quote the 62% figure, and I find it disingenuous...just like a politician in fact.

But you carry on with your spin

And you carry on expecting governments to guess what those who do not vote want, and furthermore to represent those guesses going forward during policy making decisions.

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

If you say so

Any separate deal for Scotland won't be part of A50, it would need to go to the full membership after the UK has left the EU and Spain (or others) certainly would have a veto on it.

No you said so.

But as far as these specific proposals go, the one's Sturgeon outlined on Tuesday. It's a qualified majority that's needed. Spain has no veto on the final deal. Sturgeon's proposals would be put forward by May as part of UK wide Article 50 talks and the end final deal. Whether May will or not... ?

Full membership of the EU for Scotland on it's own is another matter entirely. Sturgeon's overall stance on this so far has been to remain in the EU ( as in not leave so no new application required ).. indy ref before Article 50 completed, if a Yes vote, remove Scotland from UK Article 50 talks.

So, Scotland doesn't actually leave the EU (unless booted out), Scotland remains as is because they are no longer part of the UK's Article 50 negotiations, nor part of the UK. Even then, it's been touted on several occasions that Scotland remaining would only need a qualifying majority, not all 27 members to agree. Depends on whether Scotland remaining would be under Article 50, or Article 49.

Be interesting to see how it all plays out. And note, am just throwing all this out there for you. Not claiming it as 'fact'.

Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott said full statehood could be achieved if a majority, rather than a unanimity, of EU members, backed it.

Douglas-Scott said: “If Scotland, whether as successor state or with some other arrangement, wanted to proceed under the umbrella of article 50, it would be looking for a majority, rather than unanimity. “But if Scotland was looking for recognition as a new independent state, there might be pressure to go to article 49, which is the accession procedure, and that requires unanimity.”


Last night, a Scottish Government source said: “This is an interesting
contribution. Many key players in Europe are indicating they are open to finding a solution for Scotland. And if an independence referendum is the chosen route, then this suggestion, or something like it, may well come into play.”

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-would-only-need-8343623