The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The SNP have been pro Eu for decades and every single party in Scotland campaigned for a Remain vote.

5th June 1975 SNP were campaigning to leave. No surprise that a certain Salmond led the change to remain. Wonder why?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You can not possibly know how or why people voted unless you've actually spoken to them and they've told you the truth, to say what you're trying to you'd need to speak to them all and you clearly haven't.

I have no idea why so many SNP voters wanted to leave the EU, perhaps it's something to do with what they actually wanted over and above independence, and right now they're being alienated by Nicola and the SNP gunning for EU membership so I guess they can kiss that support goodbye.

The SNP engineered the option for indy2 with the 2015 manifesto.

They then campaigned to remain, with independence in mind. Nicola Sturgeon is quoted, on record, on the internet, for all of history saying that people who wanted independence should vote to remain even if they actually wanted to leave, look it up because I'm tired of doing so and posting it if you're not going to read it.

Neither do you have any idea why people voted as they did. Yet you're all over these posts talking about SNP religious cults and ideologies while at the same time acknowledging that a fair % of SNP voters voted to Leave the EU. Your points don't make sense.

The SNP has had independence in mind since it was founded in 1934. I'm sorry that appears to be startling news to you. But it doesn't mean people will vote for it or there's any sort of cult involved, that's what you keep mixing up. However, it is true that people are more likely to vote for it now than at any other point since 1934.

This is something you sadly need to reconcile yourself with. Is the people voting who will decide, regardless of what the SNP say or do. Be it Leave or Remain, Yes or No.

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

5th June 1975 SNP were campaigning to leave. No surprise that a certain Salmond led the change to remain. Wonder why?

Why don't you tell us ?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Neither do you have any idea why people voted as they did. Yet you're all over these posts talking about SNP religious cults and ideologies while at the same time acknowledging that a fair % of SNP voters voted to Leave the EU. Your points don't make sense.

I've not said why people voted the way they did, I said the SNP campaigned for remain on the basis of achieving independence, and were asking people who wanted to leave the EU to vote to remain to attain the chance of another independence referendum. What's not to understand?

The SNP and the independence movement is coming across as an ideology, a movement that has disturbing parallels with religious dogma because you discard all the evidence that independence is a bad thing for the Scottish economy and the SNP in particular harp on about leaving the EU (single market to be precise) being the greatest threat to the Scottish economy and that you should be independent from the UK in order to remain in it. A clear lie.

People part of a movement who disregard evidence and reason and lap up the statements of their demagogues could be a sentence used to describe people who believe in Scientology, the KKK, Aum Shinrikyo, Heaven’s Gate and it would appear we could add the SNP to that list.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The SNP has had independence in mind since it was founded in 1934. I'm sorry that appears to be startling news to you. But it doesn't mean people will vote for it or there's any sort of cult involved, that's what you keep mixing up. However, it is true that people are more likely to vote for it now than at any other point since 1934.

This is something you sadly need to reconcile yourself with. Is the people voting who will decide, regardless of what the SNP say or do. Be it Leave or Remain, Yes or No.

Ah yes, and tell me what the SNP thought about national socialism in 1934?

Oh I don't have to reconcile myself with that, I believe in evidence. If you want to blindly follow a path ignoring the evidence then that's your prerogative and is unfortunate for your fellow Scots. Support for independence is waning, so it's not more likely now than at any point in history anymore. I think people are waking up to the false idols and eventually the only people left will be the devout. As I keep saying the arguments do not stack up, especially with the EU membership thrown into the bargain now. What a joke.

elantan

.string. wrote: »

The Scottish Neverendum Party marches up the hill again I see.

I'm sure once we get indy they won't bother with any more referendums

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've not said why people voted the way they did, I said the SNP campaigned for remain on the basis of achieving independence, and were asking people who wanted to leave the EU to vote to remain to attain the chance of another independence referendum. What's not to understand?

That they are not fortune tellers ? They couldn't have known in advance how England and Wales were going to vote. Most thought Remain was going to win.

Pointing out during the campaign the potential consequences of England/Wales voting out while Scotland voted Remain as far as what the SNP would do next is just being brutally honest. Independence bill drafted and ready to go in the event of a hard Brexit. They weren't bluffing and haven't backtracked, exactly what it said on the tin.

The SNP and the independence movement is coming across as an ideology, a movement that has disturbing parallels with religious dogma because you discard all the evidence that independence is a bad thing for the Scottish economy and the SNP in particular harp on about leaving the EU (single market to be precise) being the greatest threat to the Scottish economy and that you should be independent from the UK in order to remain in it. A clear lie.

How you think the SNP and the independence movement is coming across is neither here nor there. Like the Brexit vote, there are a myriad of different priorities, reasons and motivations for wishing Scottish independence. Various and numerous political reasons, economic reasons and personal viewpoints. It's just a case of which is the most important to the individual.

You're trying to paint the entire thing with a big broad brush and label it as the below well proves :-

People part of a movement who disregard evidence and reason and lap up the statements of their demagogues could be a sentence used to describe people who believe in Scientology, the KKK, Aum Shinrikyo, Heaven’s Gate and it would appear we could add the SNP to that list.

The above sort of crap is not even worth responding to.

Ah yes, and tell me what the SNP thought about national socialism in 1934?

Nor this.

Oh I don't have to reconcile myself with that, I believe in evidence. If you want to blindly follow a path ignoring the evidence then that's your prerogative and is unfortunate for your fellow Scots. Support for independence is waning, so it's not more likely now than at any point in history anymore. I think people are waking up to the false idols and eventually the only people left will be the devout. As I keep saying the arguments do not stack up, especially with the EU membership thrown into the bargain now. What a joke.

You will have to reconcile yourself in the very near future that more people are likely to vote for Scottish independence than at any other point in history since the SNP's founding.

That you wish to comfort yourself with thoughts of people 'waking up' and false idols is your own view entirely and you're welcome to it. But we both know it's not really true.

Once Article 50 is triggered and if it's to be out of the Single Market there will be a very quickly called independence referendum. The Yes vote needs 200,000 more votes than it did last time but I strongly suspect ( my opinion ) turnout will be much lower*. Next time round any independence campaign will focus around the Tories, indicating that a No vote this time means a vote for keeping Tories happy. Scottish Labour and Lib Dems won't touch it with a bargepole. There will also be changed days for Scottish media who will be forced into either neutrality or tacit support.

*Labour No voters of 2014 will mainly stay at home in droves or else vote Yes. EU nationals will vote Yes.

Now, is there anything you'd like to dispute, with evidence in those last few paragraphs which you are having difficultly reconciling yourself with ? You seem to be losing the plot a bit. A few deep breaths maybe ?

Hintza

ABSTRACTMinority nationalist parties have been considered for several years as the most proEuropean parties. However, the concrete evidence and more recent studies have demonstrated that not all minority nationalist parties support the EU and the European integration process and that many of them, over time, have often changed
their European positions. This paper concentrates on the study of one case: the Scottish National Party (SNP). It can be considered as a typical example of minority nationalist parties that, have, over time, adopted different European attitudes. The aim of this paper is to identify the main factors that explain the SNP’s changing position towards the EU. In order to do this, the paper examines the historical evolution of the SNP’s European positions and it particularly analyses the party’s transition from euroscepticism to euro-enthusiasm at the end of the 1980’s and its
actual European position. Through the analysis of the different political contexts in which the party acts, the paper concludes that the SNP’s previous and present European policy and perspective can be understood more in relation to the “structure of political opportunities” existent in the past in the UK and presently in Scotland, rather than in relation to opportunities offered at the European level.


To sum it up political opportunism and if it suits they will flip flop again.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

That they are not fortune tellers ? They couldn't have known in advance how England and Wales were going to vote. Most thought Remain was going to win.

Pointing out during the campaign the potential consequences of England/Wales voting out while Scotland voted Remain as far as what the SNP would do next is just being brutally honest. Independence bill drafted and ready to go in the event of a hard Brexit. They weren't bluffing and haven't backtracked, exactly what it said on the tin.

How you think the SNP and the independence movement is coming across is neither here nor there. Like the Brexit vote, there are a myriad of different priorities, reasons and motivations for wishing Scottish independence. Various and numerous political reasons, economic reasons and personal viewpoints. It's just a case of which is the most important to the individual.

You're trying to paint the entire thing with a big broad brush and label it as the below well proves :-

The above sort of crap is not even worth responding to.

Nor this.

You will have to reconcile yourself in the very near future that more people are likely to vote for Scottish independence than at any other point in history since the SNP's founding.

That you wish to comfort yourself with thoughts of people 'waking up' and false idols is your own view entirely and you're welcome to it. But we both know it's not really true.

Once Article 50 is triggered and if it's to be out of the Single Market there will be a very quickly called independence referendum. The Yes vote needs 200,000 more votes than it did last time but I strongly suspect ( my opinion ) turnout will be much lower*. Next time round any independence campaign will focus around the Tories, indicating that a No vote this time means a vote for keeping Tories happy. Scottish Labour and Lib Dems won't touch it with a bargepole. There will also be changed days for Scottish media who will be forced into either neutrality or tacit support.

*Labour No voters of 2014 will mainly stay at home in droves or else vote Yes. EU nationals will vote Yes.

Now, is there anything you'd like to dispute, with evidence in those last few paragraphs which you are having difficultly reconciling yourself with ? You seem to be losing the plot a bit. A few deep breaths maybe ?

I don't think I need to respond to that, the prophesying you did in the latter paragraphs is gold to anyone who agrees with my point about SNP and indy support being close to religious dogma. Wilfully ignoring the fall in indy support, the litany of SNP failures, the evidence against independence, accepting the lies the SNP tell, it's a beautiful example of what I was talking about previously. Which ironically you said wasn't worth a response, what a response you gave! A description of the pro-indy SNP version of the perfect storm for independence to win out - I thank you a useful insight into the mind of the delusional. And if you think I'm wrong just focus on this part of what you said:

Labour No voters of 2014 will mainly stay at home in droves or else vote Yes.

Just like you know how everyone else did vote in the EU ref and will vote in future, I think we all know why John Curtice hasn't offered you a job yet lol

ruggedtoast

The Tories' Brexit Balls'up will force Scotland into the arms of the EU.

Mark my words.

Hintza

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Once Article 50 is triggered and if it's to be out of the Single Market there will be a very quickly called independence referendum.

And you will lose again by a bigger margin.

By that time the everyone not part of the cult will have woken up and seen the emperor has no clothes.