The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Don't talk complete hogwash string. The SNP have been pro Eu for decades and every single party in Scotland campaigned for a Remain vote. You, Tricky and kabayiri are trying to rewrite years of SNP history and recent Brexit campaigning history in order to try and prove something that doesn't exist. The SNP were Remain because they're pro EU. As were Scottish Labour, Ruth Davidson and Scottish Lib Dems. Simple as that.

I can remember you dismissing the prospect as mere fantasy. You were wrong on that weren't you. However, the Scottish vote was never in doubt. It was how England/Wales would vote that was in doubt.

The only person re-writing, or I prefer the term "whitewashing", history is yourself.

It was reported in the media and was blatantly apparent on the SNP website that if you vote with independence in mind vote Remain.

Put into context of the 2015 election manifesto they ran on, they positioned themselves, and pushed that position for what would appear to be one purpose and one purpose alone - independence.

In the aftermath, having the bare faced cheek to lie, outright lie, to the Scottish public that leaving the EU is the greatest threat to the Scottish economy should be unforgivable. Clearly the most dangerous threat to the Scottish economy would be splitting from the UK which is their sole reason for existence, despite any protestations to the contrary. Everyone knows the score.

The wider the perspective on the SNP and their antics the more I am convinced that history will not treat them and those who supported them kindly, whether independence is achieved or not.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The whole independence movement comes across as holier than thou.

Their politicians are better, their social attitudes are better, their press is better, their government is better, they could do everything better if only they were independent and free of the yoke of Westminster.

It's dogmatic. Almost like a religion. Especially when you consider the best they can do to support the argument is attempt to discredit existing evidence against independence rather than point to evidence of independence being the better option.

Whatever it is, is happening anyway and totally democratically according to the wishes and votes of those who reside in Scotland. Whether you like it or not. Independence is a process not an event and as long as the SNP remain dominant in Scotland, and the Tories in rUK then it's never going to go away. A resurgent Labour party was the only hope left for the Union imo... but events have overtaken all that for now.

NICOLA Sturgeon has made it clear she will not accept a deal Theresa May is considering to allow a second independence referendum if it takes place after Brexit. A spokesman for the First Minister said she had underlined any new vote would be before the UK leaves the European Union and blocking it would be counterproductive for her.

“We have made it clear that Scotland must have the opportunity to vote on independence before the UK leaves the EU, if it becomes clear that is the best or only way to protect our national interests and any Tory plotting to block that would only succeed in boosting support for independence,”.

The tough response came after it was reported yesterday UK ministers were considering offering a deal with Sturgeon that would give her power to have a new referendum but only after the whole UK had left the EU.

Scottish ministers are exploring ways of keeping Scotland in the UK and protecting its place in the European single market.
But Sturgeon has indicated she will seek to hold a new independence referendum if it is the best way of protecting Scotland’s interests.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14952568.Sturgeon_snubs_May_s_offer_of_a_post_Brexit_indyref2/

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The only person re-writing, or I prefer the term "whitewashing", history is yourself.

It was reported in the media and was blatantly apparent on the SNP website that if you vote with independence in mind vote Remain.

Put into context of the 2015 election manifesto they ran on, they positioned themselves, and pushed that position for what would appear to be one purpose and one purpose alone - independence.

In the aftermath, having the bare faced cheek to lie, outright lie, to the Scottish public that leaving the EU is the greatest threat to the Scottish economy should be unforgivable. Clearly the most dangerous threat to the Scottish economy would be splitting from the UK which is their sole reason for existence, despite any protestations to the contrary. Everyone knows the score.

The wider the perspective on the SNP and their antics the more I am convinced that history will not treat them and those who supported them kindly, whether independence is achieved or not.

So you're saying the SNP would've normally have campaigned for Leave, but went all Remain just to try and get another independence referendum. Despite the fact the SNP have been pro-EU for decades.

Really ? Mental gymnastics on an epic scale there from you I'm afraid and just not credible when one looks at the wider picture of where the SNP has stood on the EU since early Salmond days in the 80's.

Scottish voters voted to Remain. Cross party and from all regions of Scotland. No one made them do so at the ballot box.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Whatever it is, is happening anyway and totally democratically according to the wishes and votes of those who reside in Scotland. Whether you like it or not. Independence is a process not an event and as long as the SNP remain dominant in Scotland, and the Tories in rUK then it's never going to go away. A resurgent Labour party was the only hope left for the Union imo... but events have overtaken all that for now.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14952568.Sturgeon_snubs_May_s_offer_of_a_post_Brexit_indyref2/

The truth will out, it always does.

Failing schools, failing hospitals, failing policing, failed policies, failing budgets, failed referendum, failing polls.

Complaining about Westminster, then asking Westminster to look after the powers you've just been given!

Complaining about being part of the UK, and then complaining that you don't get the contracts to build the ships for the UK and protect your jobs.

Complaining about the UK and Westminster stealing your oil and being incredibly quiet on the topic of having to prop it up when it's making a loss without it affecting the Scottish government budget.

Make up your minds!

No evidence to support independence being better than the union, just attempts to discredit evidence, such as GERS and trade statistics that prove independence is the greatest threat to the ability of Scots to put food on the table and a roof over their head. It's ideological demagoguery, and it will eventually fail. Sadly it may be too late to resolve the damage it will do.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

So you're saying the SNP would've normally have campaigned for Leave, but went all Remain just to try and get another independence referendum. Despite the fact the SNP have been pro-EU for decades.

Nope. Not what I'm saying. What I posted is exactly what I meant, no interpretation needed.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Really ? Mental gymnastics on an epic scale there from you I'm afraid and just not credible when one looks at the wider picture of where the SNP has stood on the EU since early Salmond days in the 80's.

Scottish voters voted to Remain. Cross party and from all regions of Scotland. No one made them do so at the ballot box.

No mental gymnastics. I said:

It was reported in the media and was blatantly apparent on the SNP website that if you vote with independence in mind vote Remain.

Put into context of the 2015 election manifesto they ran on, they positioned themselves, and pushed that position for what would appear to be one purpose and one purpose alone - independence.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Don't talk complete hogwash string. The SNP have been pro Eu for decades and every single party in Scotland campaigned for a Remain vote. You, Tricky and kabayiri are trying to rewrite years of SNP history and recent Brexit campaigning history in order to try and prove something that doesn't exist. The SNP were Remain because they're pro EU. As were Scottish Labour, Ruth Davidson and Scottish Lib Dems. Simple as that.

I can remember you dismissing the prospect as mere fantasy. You were wrong on that weren't you. However, the Scottish vote was never in doubt. It was how England/Wales would vote that was in doubt.

It is not hogwash to point out that you clearly did not read what it was that TT wrote. That was the point in my post. For once have the honesty to admit a mistake.

With respect to your deflections and extending you the courtesy of a reply, rather than just avoiding answering in your fashion: I don't remember saying that a Leave vote would be a fantasy, but I may well have done so, it being a common belief on all sides. However, you might recal that, being a remained at the time of the Referendum, I stated that if it was the Scottish votes that were to tip the balance towards Remain I would be pleased at the result. I voted on principal lines, not tribal.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Nope. Not what I'm saying. What I posted is exactly what I meant, no interpretation needed.

No mental gymnastics. I said:

Then why did so many SNP voters vote to Leave then ? Like I said, your entire premise is hogwash. People voted according to their own terms and priorities.

The SNP engineered nothing and have always been pro-EU. All other party leaders in Scotland were campaigning on exactly the same page Brexit. Only Ruth Davidson is now showing her lack of principles on the matter, no one else.

.string.

The Scottish Neverendum Party marches up the hill again I see.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Then why did so many SNP voters vote to Leave then ? Like I said, your entire premise is hogwash. People voted according to their own terms and priorities.

The SNP engineered nothing and have always been pro-EU. All other party leaders in Scotland were campaigning on exactly the same page Brexit. Only Ruth Davidson is now showing her lack of principles on the matter, no one else.

You can not possibly know how or why people voted unless you've actually spoken to them and they've told you the truth, to say what you're trying to you'd need to speak to them all and you clearly haven't.

I have no idea why so many SNP voters wanted to leave the EU, perhaps it's something to do with what they actually wanted over and above independence, and right now they're being alienated by Nicola and the SNP gunning for EU membership so I guess they can kiss that support goodbye.

The SNP engineered the option for indy2 with the 2015 manifesto.

They then campaigned to remain, with independence in mind. Nicola Sturgeon is quoted, on record, on the internet, for all of history saying that people who wanted independence should vote to remain even if they actually wanted to leave, look it up because I'm tired of doing so and posting it if you're not going to read it.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The truth will out, it always does.

Failing schools, failing hospitals, failing policing, failed policies, failing budgets, failed referendum, failing polls.

Complaining about Westminster, then asking Westminster to look after the powers you've just been given!

Complaining about being part of the UK, and then complaining that you don't get the contracts to build the ships for the UK and protect your jobs.

Complaining about the UK and Westminster stealing your oil and being incredibly quiet on the topic of having to prop it up when it's making a loss without it affecting the Scottish government budget.

Make up your minds!

No evidence to support independence being better than the union, just attempts to discredit evidence, such as GERS and trade statistics that prove independence is the greatest threat to the ability of Scots to put food on the table and a roof over their head. It's ideological demagoguery, and it will eventually fail. Sadly it may be too late to resolve the damage it will do.

Quite a list there. More reflective one might say of certain media outlets views rather than the realities of the situation. The SNP aren't perfect. But the best in Scotland at the moment since neither Davidson nor Dugdale seem to have much in the way of any policies. Which even the massively anti-SNP/Unionist Scotsman is aware of.

So Ms Davidson has been left trying to defend something she did not support. And although at first she argued for continuing membership of the single market, she now appears to have dropped that...

..This is significant because the Tories did not get where they are today by having to argue on policies – they relied on Ms Davidson’s popularity and the promise they would be a strong opposition. If they are forced to discuss policy issues, some of that popularity may evaporate.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/ian-swanson-ruth-s-on-the-rack-as-she-defends-the-indefensible-1-4310620

So, until Labour and the Tories come up with actual policies of their own on policing, education, the NHS etc they will be left carping from the sidelines with offering no real solutions to the problems. Has been this way in Holyrood since 2007 and they aren't doing themselves any favours. Certainly not in voters eyes going by recent elections. If you're going to put out press release, after press release 24/7 for years you'd better make sure you have better answers. They don't.