The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Do the publications I quoted carry no weight at all?

Nah it's more that these sorts of discussions mainly end up with pics/examples like your's being countered with similar in the opposite direction 'Scots are all ****' and off it goes ( and for every one post one way, there's equal in response ). Check out some comments on Scottish stories in the Express or the Mail sometime.

Just causes loads of bad feelings for everyone posting getting onto that creaking clapped out old merry go round.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

We've already discussed your claim of anglophobia here many times. It boils down to the fact that you think many Scots are independence minded because they don't like English people.

You couldn't be further from the truth. It's not something that's rampant or 'growing' in Scotland and it insults many who wish independence for a myriad of other, mainly political or ideological reasons. <---- which is 99% of those who wish independence.

Making it about anglophobia is a convenient 'put it all in a box' argument and the laziest argument going. Similar to those who paint Leave voters as similarly racist or xenophobic when again, in reality people voted Leave for a myriad of other perfectly valid reasons. So yes, it has very much to do with the narrative you're trying to paint.

If you really are looking to 'get inside the heads' of those who would vote Yes tomorrow should another independence referendum occur, then lazy dismissive age old soundbites/studies and the old pic of random graffiti isn't really going to cut it. That sort of thing doesn't speak for me, and never has done. No one I have ever known either. And it's ordinary average people like me who'll in most cases, be doing the voting. None of us ordinary average Scots people carry spray paint around either.

This isn't about you or England. Hurts to hear it I know. But for once politically in this particular issue England has nothing whatsover to do with it. Sure make your opinions known, they're welcome to the debate and it's interesting to see how things are viewed by those being fed 24/7 media headlines instead of living here. Scotland itself is polarised on the issue ( see Mollycat etc ). But as someone who would vote Yes tomorrow, and as someone who lives, works and socialises in Scotland. The only relevance England or English people has to do with this at all, is the big parliament sat in Westminster.

If it comforts you to think that Scots are all rampant anglophobics and that's at the bottom of what's going on then fair enough. But don't expect me to agree with it when it's not anything based in my reality. Not even close. In short, playing the anglophobia card is lazy and insulting... but we're very used to it being played anyway. Mainly because it saves people like you having to think a little deeper on the subject and having to think about other reasons why Scots might want to leave the UK.

No, no, no. You said I was talking rubbish. You said find the evidence. I did.

I don't want to hear arguments about feelings from you, that's of no substance as you yourself pointed out when I posted my feelings on the matter regarding anti-English sentiment in correlation with SNP support.

I'm not trying to paint a narrative, the scientific community have shown you what the real narrative is. Unless you can prove otherwise it's yourself and others like you who are painting a narrative. I don't want to get into the heads of people, I'm not trying to 'put it all in a box', I asked you not to make it about your feelings and to back up your trashing of my opinion with facts. I've not said it's all about England, I've not 'played the anglophobia card' because I'm lazy or trying to insult anyone. None of your post above has any substance to it outside of your own mind. Please lets try to stick to the topic I'm addressing which is you claiming I'm talking rubbish about Scottish anglophobia and links to the SNP, and Scottish identity/independence.

Please do me the same courtesy by debating this on a factual basis as I have done with you. As I have done please provide some scientific evidence that disproves the correlation between the SNP and Scottish anglophobia therefore supporting your original position of me talking rubbish.

Either that, or concede the point. I really am tired of letting the left off the hook for things like this. Denial is not factual proof, and of course my personal favourite - facts don't care about your feelings.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Nah it's more that these sorts of discussions mainly end up with pics/examples like your's being countered with similar in the opposite direction 'Scots are all ****' and off it goes ( and for every one post one way, there's equal in response ). Check out some comments on Scottish stories in the Express or the Mail sometime.

Just causes loads of bad feelings for everyone posting getting onto that creaking clapped out old merry go round.

You said no newspapers.

I obliged, please return the courtesy or concede the point.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

No, no, no. You said I was talking rubbish. You said find the evidence. I did.

I don't want to hear arguments about feelings from you, that's of no substance as you yourself pointed out when I posted my feelings on the matter regarding anti-English sentiment in correlation with SNP support.

I'm not trying to paint a narrative, the scientific community have shown you what the real narrative is. Unless you can prove otherwise it's yourself and others like you who are painting a narrative. I don't want to get into the heads of people, I'm not trying to 'put it all in a box', I asked you not to make it about your feelings and to back up your trashing of my opinion with facts. I've not said it's all about England, I've not 'played the anglophobia card' because I'm lazy or trying to insult anyone. None of your post above has any substance to it outside of your own mind. Please lets try to stick to the topic I'm addressing which is you claiming I'm talking rubbish about Scottish anglophobia and links to the SNP, and Scottish identity/independence.

Please do me the same courtesy as debating this on a factual basis as I have done with you. As I have done please provide some scientific evidence that disproves the correlation between the SNP and Scottish anglophobia therefore supporting your original position of me talking rubbish.

Either that, or concede the point.

I did, I gave you a study from last year to start you off about identity politics/SNP and the fact there was no rise of nationalistic feeling involved in folks north of the border voting for them.

Please refer back. It wasn't a newspaper.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I did, I gave you a study from last year to start you off about identity politics/SNP and the fact there was no rise of nationalistic feeling involved in folks north of the border voting for them.

Please refer back. It wasn't a newspaper.

Again no, that's about no rise in Scottish nationalism, not the link between anglophobia and voting SNP.

HornetSaver

.string. wrote: »

2 Any really intelligent person can see that British opinion is not focussed entirely on immigration.

I thought about doing an eloquent, mature response, but sometimes childish pictures are truly worth a thousand words:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

But semi-seriously, more than 5% of Leave voters were ultimately swayed by immigration, and I challenge anyone to claim otherwise. There were also Remain voters who were nearly swayed by immigration, but on balance concluded that the upsides to being in the EU outweighed it. I'm not saying that it's the only issue. Many would argue that it wasn't even the number one issue. But it was an issue, and it did influence votes.

.string.

HornetSaver wrote: »

I thought about doing an eloquent, mature response, but sometimes childish pictures are truly worth a thousand words:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

But semi-seriously, more than 5% of Leave voters were ultimately swayed by immigration, and I challenge anyone to claim otherwise. There were also Remain voters who were nearly swayed by immigration, but on balance concluded that the upsides to being in the EU outweighed it. I'm not saying that it's the only issue. Many would argue that it wasn't even the number one issue. But it was an issue, and it did influence votes.

Thanks for your restraint. I apologise because I see I totally misunderstood what you were saying. I thought the meaning of your post was that the reason motivating people in England to vote leave was the matter of immigration, but I understand from your last post, quoted above, that the percentage, though small at 5%, was enough to tip the balance over to a leave vote.

So sorry about that, I'll go back and modify or delete my previous post.

Moto2

.string. wrote: »

...... that the percentage, though small at 5%, was enough to tip the balance over to a leave vote.

The inbuilt lead of 12% (ish) UKIP voters leads me to suspect that the 5% figure is awry.

Many other factors of course that would bring the two figures closer to convergence but they look too far apart for me.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes it does. Because 1) The study is 13 years old and 2) You've only gone looking in one direction. No balance you see, exactly what Scots are turning off Scottish news programs and why they're not reading newspapers anymore. There's plenty of the same in the other direction, but is never spoken about nor highlighted.

And anyway, a few extreme nutters on either side are hardly representative of the whole are they. Or at least, that's how I view it. Remember that you're talking about Scottish people here, and labelling. Not the SNP. Why, that's like me saying because hate crime is on the increase in England that Leave voters are entirely to blame. And we both know that's not true now don't we ?

ps How long did you waste digging that lot up to prove a point ? We've been over this many times already here. We've established that no one from anywhere in the UK likes to be called racist. End of story.

a large number of REAL scottish people voted for Flower of Scotland to represent them in the 21st century : its a song about killing the English

almost beyond belief that any forelooking country would vote for such a song unless their long histroy of resentment wasn't at a high level.
Chip on the shoulder and racism is the reason.

beecher2

Oh no, we've officially gone in a full circle when Flower of Scotland gets mentioned!