The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mollycat

elantan wrote: »

That really bothers you doesn't it ?

Not particularly.

Curious as to why you would be so vociferous with regard to Indy but not plan to live here?

ps it's a rhetorical question; your reasons are clear enough....a world view of negativity and disgruntlement that you feel the need to remedy.

Unfortunately for your crusade, most scots are happy with their lot IMHO.

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

Not particularly.

Curious as to why you would be so vociferous with regard to Indy but not plan to live here?

ps it's a rhetorical question; your reasons are clear enough....a world view of negativity and disgruntlement that you feel the need to remedy.

Unfortunately for your crusade, most scots are happy with their lot IMHO.

And yet I ain't negative or disgruntled in my world view ... well maybe slightly as I reckon Trump isn't gonna be great, and Brexit certainly isnt going to be good for Scotland ..but maybe your looking at your own reflection

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

2003 ? Jeezo.

Does that lessen the findings?

Yes it's not applicable to the present day, but it does give us both a starter for 10 in establishing that anglophobia in Scotland was worthy enough of a social study and the findings were that it does exist. Given that baseline was 2003 and we're now 13 years later with a rise in Scottish nationalism it's pretty hard to see how the two would not rise hand in hand.

Simply saying "2003?" and "jeezo" just shows an ignorance towards the topic. You must know this, and yet you did it anyway.

Lets look at some additional information:

Scotland
See also: Scottish national identity and Category:England–Scotland relations
In a 2003 survey of 500 English people living in Scotland, one quarter said that they had been harassed or discriminated against by the Scots.[3]

A 2005 study by Hussain and Millar of the Department of Politics at the University of Glasgow examined the prevalence of Anglophobia in relation to Islamophobia in Scotland. One finding of the report suggested that national "phobias" have common roots independent of the nations they are directed toward. The study states that:

Scottish identity comes close to rivalling low levels of education as an influence towards Anglophobia. Beyond that, having an English friend reduces Anglophobia by about as much as having a Muslim friend reduces Islamophobia. And lack of knowledge about Islam probably indicates a broader rejection of the ‘other’, for it has as much impact on Anglophobia as on Islamophobia.[4]
The study goes on to say: (of the English living in Scotland) "Few of the English (only 16 percent) see conflict between Scots and English as even 'fairly serious'". Hussain and Millar's study found that Anglophobia was slightly less prevalent than Islamophobia, but that unlike Islamophobia, Anglophobia correlated with a strong sense of Scottish identity.

In 1999 an Inspector and race relations officer with Lothian and Borders Police said that a correlation had been noticed between the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and anti-English incidents.[5] However, Hussain and Millar's research suggested that Anglophobia had fallen slightly since the introduction of devolution.

In 2009 a woman originally from England was assaulted in an allegedly anti-English racially motivated attack.[6] Similar cases have been connected with major football matches and tournaments, particularly international tournaments where the English and Scottish football teams often compete with each other.[7][8][9] A spate of anti-English attacks occurred in 2006 during the football World Cup,[10] in one incident a 7 year old boy wearing an England shirt was punched in the head in an Edinburgh park.[11]

http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Anglophobia#Scotland

Questions in the 2003 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey were used to compare Islamophobia with four other Scottish phobias: sectarianism (primarily anti-Catholic), and phobias about Europe, Asylum seekers, and ‘the auld enemy’(England). Social factors affected all phobias the same way, but political factors discriminated. Conservative voters scored low on Anglophobia but high on every other phobia; SNP voters scored high on Anglophobia but not on other phobias. This suggested that Anglophobia itself displaced Islamophobia by providing another target, and that England itself helped reduce within-Scotland phobias by providing Scots with a common, external and very significant ‘other’. Scotland is too small, too peripheral, and too insignificant to play a corresponding role in displacing phobias within England. However, by stimulating English nationalism without providing a truly significant ‘other’, Scottish nationalism may actually increase Islamophobia in England, but not in Scotland.

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0199280711.001.0001/acprof-9780199280711-chapter-4

Hussain and Miller (2006) have produced a rigorous
analysis of this data and reported higher levels of Islamophobia than
Anglophobia amongst the Scottish pubic in general. Yet interestingly their
analysis finds that having a strong sense of Scottish identity and being an SNP
voter are both associated with high levels of Anglophobia.

http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/pdfplus/10.3366/scot.2014.0006

I found it interesting to see that Hussain and Miller found Scots are more Islamophobic than they are Anglophobic, but that Anglophobia is linked to being an SNP supporter.

TrickyTree83

mollycat wrote: »

The author of this priceless nugget isn't even planning to stay in Scotland for very much longer, never mind the UK!!

So committed to her "nation",she's flying off to the sun permenently and leaving everyone else to suck up the consequences.

Gee thanks :rotfl:

If they get their wish and Scotland becomes independent lets hope they have mountains of cash in a private pension, all those government unfunded liabilities coming home to roost might make Benidorm less attractive, especially if you're pressed into cleaning the bars on a Sunday morning to make ends meet and pay those prescriptions.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Does that lessen the findings?

Yes it's not applicable to the present day, but it does give us both a starter for 10 in establishing that anglophobia in Scotland was worthy enough of a social study and the findings were that it does exist. Given that baseline was 2003 and we're now 13 years later with a rise in Scottish nationalism it's pretty hard to see how the two would not rise hand in hand.

Simply saying "2003?" and "jeezo" just shows an ignorance towards the topic. You must know this, and yet you did it anyway.

Lets look at some additional information:



http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Anglophobia#Scotland



http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0199280711.001.0001/acprof-9780199280711-chapter-4



http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/pdfplus/10.3366/scot.2014.0006

I found it interesting to see that Hussain and Miller found Scots are more Islamophobic than they are Anglophobic, but that Anglophobia is linked to being an SNP supporter.

Yes it does. Because 1) The study is 13 years old and 2) You've only gone looking in one direction. No balance you see, exactly what Scots are turning off Scottish news programs and why they're not reading newspapers anymore. There's plenty of the same in the other direction, but is never spoken about nor highlighted.

And anyway, a few extreme nutters on either side are hardly representative of the whole are they. Or at least, that's how I view it. Remember that you're talking about Scottish people here, and labelling. Not the SNP. Why, that's like me saying because hate crime is on the increase in England that Leave voters are entirely to blame. And we both know that's not true now don't we ?

ps How long did you waste digging that lot up to prove a point ? We've been over this many times already here. We've established that no one from anywhere in the UK likes to be called racist. End of story.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes it does. Because 1) The study is 13 years old and 2) You've only gone looking in one direction. No balance you see, exactly what Scots are turning off Scottish news programs and why they're not reading newspapers anymore. There's plenty of the same in the other direction, but is never spoken about nor highlighted.

And anyway, a few extreme nutters on either side are hardly representative of the whole are they. Or at least, that's how I view it. Remember that you're talking about Scottish people here, and labelling. Not the SNP. Why, that's like me saying because hate crime is on the increase in England that Leave voters are entirely to blame. And we both know that's not true now don't we ?

ps How long did you waste digging that lot up to prove a point ? We've been over this many times already here. We've established that no one from anywhere in the UK likes to be called racist. End of story.

Nope.

We're discussing my claim that anglophobia exists, and that it was on the rise as a consequence of the SNP and Scottish nationalism. Because you saw fit to tell me that I was talking rubbish.

I've looked for studies and articles about anglophobia in Scotland (as promised) and came across academic publishing's which confirmed my opinion.

That is all.

Leave voters have nothing to do with what I posted, newspapers have nothing to do with what I posted, I've not called anyone a racist.

The age of the first paper is old, however there are other articles, papers, incidents and publishing's which range from 1999 through to 2009. There is scientific research that states that anglophobic feeling is linked to a sense of Scottish identity and voting SNP in Scotland. Either we can choose to ignore this evidence or we need to incorporate it into our world view.

I don't feel that I wasted my time, because you poured scorn on me for suggesting something that has now been vindicated by publishing's from Edinburgh University Press, Oxford University Press and two scientific research publishing houses (FYI University of Glasgow also references Hussain and Miller). Based on the weight of evidence an admission that I'm indeed correct about the correlation between voting SNP and anglophobia would be the least I would expect (under normal circumstances).

Lets also quickly take time to mention the other findings in the research, that Islamophobia is more prevalent in Scotland than Anglophobia (Hussain & Miller 2006). It would be nice to hear no more of the false piety on here about Scotland not being at all xenophobic and wanting to rid itself of the wholly xenophobic English. As the research concludes, that type of thinking is just substituting one type of phobia with another, namely Anglophobia.

Now it's not me saying it's a substitution, that's the research, so if any of you take issue with that you can take it up with the authors. I believe I've made the argument in a fair manner, and whilst I would expect the admission that I'm correct on this point I don't believe I will get it, the left never do admit when they're wrong.

zagubov

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes it does. Because 1) The study is 13 years old and 2) You've only gone looking in one direction. No balance you see, exactly what Scots are turning off Scottish news programs and why they're not reading newspapers anymore. There's plenty of the same in the other direction, but is never spoken about nor highlighted.

And anyway, a few extreme nutters on either side are hardly representative of the whole are they. Or at least, that's how I view it. Remember that you're talking about Scottish people here, and labelling. Not the SNP. Why, that's like me saying because hate crime is on the increase in England that Leave voters are entirely to blame. And we both know that's not true now don't we ?

ps How long did you waste digging that lot up to prove a point ? We've been over this many times already here. We've established that no one from anywhere in the UK likes to be called racist. End of story.

I dealt with this years ago.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=65993630&postcount=5726
Follow the links within my link and you'll realise that people on this forum have (inexpicably ) been trying to rescuscitate the decade-old dead horse of Scottish anglophobia which must still statistically have a few undead cells in it. But if you think that makes such racism a live organism, I've got to say undertakers have probably buried corpses with more living cells than that.;)

TrickyTree83

zagubov wrote: »

I dealt with this years ago.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=65993630&postcount=5726
Follow the links within my link and you'll realise that people on this forum have (inexpicably ) been trying to rescuscitate the decade-old dead horse of Scottish anglophobia which must still statistically have a few undead cells in it. But if you think that makes such racism a live organism, I've got to say undertakers have probably buried corpses with more living cells than that.;)

Do the publications I quoted carry no weight at all?

Do the range of dates from 1999 - 2009 cited in the papers not indicate that it's at least been alive and well for a decade of recent history in addition to being scientifically linked to a sense of Scottish identity and voting for the SNP?

In the world of the left, of course they don't, it's the wrong narrative. In your mind you've already proved it wrong, you've conclusively proved that Scottish anglophobia doesn't exist, it's not linked to the SNP and that the Edinburgh University Press, Oxford University Press, Glasgow University and two scientific paper publishing organisations store and promote misleading/incorrect information. They're probably Unionist.

Am I close?

Why don't you address the research specifically? Prove it wrong or concede the point. That's how real debate works, rather than the Guardian (left) claiming they should "stop teaching facts because they don't win arguments" the journalist should perhaps take a look at this forum and concede that those on the left dislike facts.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Nope.

We're discussing my claim that anglophobia exists, and that it was on the rise as a consequence of the SNP and Scottish nationalism. Because you saw fit to tell me that I was talking rubbish.

I've looked for studies and articles about anglophobia in Scotland (as promised) and came across academic publishing's which confirmed my opinion.

That is all.

Leave voters have nothing to do with what I posted, newspapers have nothing to do with what I posted, I've not called anyone a racist.

The age of the first paper is old, however there are other articles, papers, incidents and publishing's which range from 1999 through to 2009. There is scientific research that states that anglophobic feeling is linked to a sense of Scottish identity and voting SNP in Scotland. Either we can choose to ignore this evidence or we need to incorporate it into our world view.

I don't feel that I wasted my time, because you poured scorn on me for suggesting something that has now been vindicated by publishing's from Edinburgh University Press, Oxford University Press and two scientific research publishing houses (FYI University of Glasgow also references Hussain and Miller). Based on the weight of evidence an admission that I'm indeed correct about the correlation between voting SNP and anglophobia would be the least I would expect (under normal circumstances).

Lets also quickly take time to mention the other findings in the research, that Islamophobia is more prevalent in Scotland than Anglophobia (Hussain & Miller 2006). It would be nice to hear no more of the false piety on here about Scotland not being at all xenophobic and wanting to rid itself of the wholly xenophobic English. As the research concludes, that type of thinking is just substituting one type of phobia with another, namely Anglophobia.

Now it's not me saying it's a substitution, that's the research, so if any of you take issue with that you can take it up with the authors. I believe I've made the argument in a fair manner, and whilst I would expect the admission that I'm correct on this point I don't believe I will get it, the left never do admit when they're wrong.

We've already discussed your claim of anglophobia here many times. It boils down to the fact that you think many Scots are independence minded because they don't like English people.

You couldn't be further from the truth. It's not something that's rampant or 'growing' in Scotland and it insults many who wish independence for a myriad of other, mainly political or ideological reasons. <---- which is 99% of those who wish independence.

Making it about anglophobia is a convenient 'put it all in a box' argument and the laziest argument going. Similar to those who paint Leave voters as similarly racist or xenophobic when again, in reality people voted Leave for a myriad of other perfectly valid reasons. So yes, it has very much to do with the narrative you're trying to paint.

If you really are looking to 'get inside the heads' of those who would vote Yes tomorrow should another independence referendum occur, then lazy dismissive age old soundbites/studies and the old pic of random graffiti isn't really going to cut it. That sort of thing doesn't speak for me, and never has done. No one I have ever known either. And it's ordinary average people like me who'll in most cases, be doing the voting. None of us ordinary average Scots people carry spray paint around either.

This isn't about you or England. Hurts to hear it I know. But for once politically in this particular issue England has nothing whatsover to do with it. Sure make your opinions known, they're welcome to the debate and it's interesting to see how things are viewed by those being fed 24/7 media headlines instead of living here. Scotland itself is polarised on the issue ( see Mollycat etc ). But as someone who would vote Yes tomorrow, and as someone who lives, works and socialises in Scotland. The only relevance England or English people have to do with this at all, is the big parliament sat in Westminster.

If it comforts you to think that Scots are all rampant anglophobics and that's at the bottom of what's going on then fair enough. But don't expect me to agree with it when it's not anything based in my reality. Not even close. In short, playing the anglophobia card is lazy and insulting... but we're very used to it being played anyway. Mainly because it saves people like you having to think a little deeper on the subject and having to think about other reasons why Scots might want to leave the UK.

Shakethedisease

zagubov wrote: »

I dealt with this years ago.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=65993630&postcount=5726
Follow the links within my link and you'll realise that people on this forum have (inexpicably ) been trying to rescuscitate the decade-old dead horse of Scottish anglophobia which must still statistically have a few undead cells in it. But if you think that makes such racism a live organism, I've got to say undertakers have probably buried corpses with more living cells than that.;)

Cross posted. You probably said it better and far more succinctly than me. Again.