The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

CLAPTON

beecher2 wrote: »

Oh no, we've officially gone in a full circle when Flower of Scotland gets mentioned!

rather that the basic chip on the shoulder and racial intolerance, sadly has not changed over the years.

.string.

SNP - the musical

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Again no, that's about no rise in Scottish nationalism, not the link between anglophobia and voting SNP.

Scottish nationalism and SNP policies aren't based on where you were born though. It's where you live that matters ( and the clue is in the name of the party as to where the people live). Unless you can prove that the SNP are actively stoking anti-English feeling and narratives through word and deed then your argument linking the SNP with anglophobia is invalid.

I went to bed last night after I logged off thinking 'OMG Flower of Scotland, please not again'. But up it popped anyway. :T

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Scottish nationalism and SNP policies aren't based on where you were born though. It's where you live that matters ( and the clue is in the name of the party as to where the people live). Unless you can prove that the SNP are actively stoking anti-English feeling and narratives through word and deed then your argument linking the SNP with anglophobia is invalid.

I went to bed last night after I logged off thinking 'OMG Flower of Scotland, please not again'. But up it popped anyway. :T

So despite scientific research pointing out the link between anglophobia and voting SNP/Scottish identity politics, none of that matters? You now demand proof from me that the SNP are actively stoking it!

I knew I wouldn't get an admission. My argument is not invalid is it, it's completely 100% validated by scientific research that YOU asked me to provide.

I feel you've lost a lot of credibility in this exchange, neutral readers will clearly see I've competently demonstrated my claim that there is an association between anglophobia in Scotland and voting SNP/Scottish identity politics. Anything that doesn't discredit or disprove the evidence is consequently waffle, unless it's an acceptance of the evidence.

elantan

beecher2 wrote: »

Oh no, we've officially gone in a full circle when Flower of Scotland gets mentioned!

We've went full circle so many time on this thread I've had to take motion sickness tablets

mayonnaise

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

neutral readers will clearly see I've competently demonstrated my claim that there is an association between anglophobia in Scotland and voting SNP/Scottish identity politics.

Nope, you haven't competently demonstrated anything.
And I say this as a neutral reader.

TrickyTree83

mayonnaise wrote: »

Nope, you haven't competently demonstrated anything.
And I say this as a neutral reader.

Ok, tell me which part of the below doesn't indicate to you that scientific research has established there is evidence of a link between anglophobia and voting SNP/Scottish identity politics.

Don't just blurt it out, tell me where the evidence is wrong, tell me where I am wrong. Otherwise again - it's just waffle.

I'll make it easy for you...

Scotland
See also: Scottish national identity and Category:England–Scotland relations
In a 2003 survey of 500 English people living in Scotland, one quarter said that they had been harassed or discriminated against by the Scots.[3]

A 2005 study by Hussain and Millar of the Department of Politics at the University of Glasgow examined the prevalence of Anglophobia in relation to Islamophobia in Scotland. One finding of the report suggested that national "phobias" have common roots independent of the nations they are directed toward. The study states that:

Scottish identity comes close to rivalling low levels of education as an influence towards Anglophobia. Beyond that, having an English friend reduces Anglophobia by about as much as having a Muslim friend reduces Islamophobia. And lack of knowledge about Islam probably indicates a broader rejection of the ‘other’, for it has as much impact on Anglophobia as on Islamophobia.[4]
The study goes on to say: (of the English living in Scotland) "Few of the English (only 16 percent) see conflict between Scots and English as even 'fairly serious'". Hussain and Millar's study found that Anglophobia was slightly less prevalent than Islamophobia, but that unlike Islamophobia, Anglophobia correlated with a strong sense of Scottish identity.

In 1999 an Inspector and race relations officer with Lothian and Borders Police said that a correlation had been noticed between the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and anti-English incidents.[5] However, Hussain and Millar's research suggested that Anglophobia had fallen slightly since the introduction of devolution.

In 2009 a woman originally from England was assaulted in an allegedly anti-English racially motivated attack.[6] Similar cases have been connected with major football matches and tournaments, particularly international tournaments where the English and Scottish football teams often compete with each other.[7][8][9] A spate of anti-English attacks occurred in 2006 during the football World Cup,[10] in one incident a 7 year old boy wearing an England shirt was punched in the head in an Edinburgh park.[11]

http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Anglophobia#Scotland

Questions in the 2003 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey were used to compare Islamophobia with four other Scottish phobias: sectarianism (primarily anti-Catholic), and phobias about Europe, Asylum seekers, and ‘the auld enemy’(England). Social factors affected all phobias the same way, but political factors discriminated. Conservative voters scored low on Anglophobia but high on every other phobia; SNP voters scored high on Anglophobia but not on other phobias. This suggested that Anglophobia itself displaced Islamophobia by providing another target, and that England itself helped reduce within-Scotland phobias by providing Scots with a common, external and very significant ‘other’. Scotland is too small, too peripheral, and too insignificant to play a corresponding role in displacing phobias within England. However, by stimulating English nationalism without providing a truly significant ‘other’, Scottish nationalism may actually increase Islamophobia in England, but not in Scotland.

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0199280711.001.0001/acprof-9780199280711-chapter-4

Hussain and Miller (2006) have produced a rigorous
analysis of this data and reported higher levels of Islamophobia than
Anglophobia amongst the Scottish pubic in general. Yet interestingly their
analysis finds that having a strong sense of Scottish identity and being an SNP
voter are both associated with high levels of Anglophobia.

http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/pdfplus/10.3366/scot.2014.0006

If you go to the URL's and copy and paste the text in bold you will find the specific passage.

I'll now challenge both you and Shakethedisease to disprove or discredit the evidence, or accept it. Or will you go down the same path as Shakethedisease and attempt the debating equivalent of pushing water up hill? I've made the quotes from the research very easy to see and read, so you don't miss it, there should be no excuses as to what you're being asked to discredit and disprove.

HornetSaver

Hussain and Miller (2006) have produced a rigorous
analysis of this data and reported higher levels of Islamophobia than
Anglophobia amongst the Scottish pubic in general. Yet interestingly their
analysis finds that having a strong sense of Scottish identity and being an SNP
voter are both associated with high levels of Anglophobia

Wow, even the writing is louder north of the border.

I'm not going to directly wade into the discussion on whether the SNP as a whole, or noteworthy elements within it, are Anglophobic. Though for disclosure I do have an opinion.

But I have always considered the SNP to be walking somewhat of a tightrope in terms of their relationship with rUK and England in particular, in a way that I don't think applied in the EU referendum.

If they talk too much about shared valued and goals then they start to sound like unionists. And if they swing too far in the direction of antagonisation then they turn off those who I would term as "not at any price" nationalists - people who could be convinced to vote "Yes" in Indyref 2, but who would vote No again if they feel the social or economic price would be too high.

This is distinct from the EU referendum, where a "we're not going to take this any more" approach was feasible. The more aggressively the case was made that the EU was a bad thing, the more believable the suggestion to those in the middle that the shape of our subsequent relationship with the EU didn't particularly matter. I don't think the same logic holds true in Scotland. You could easily convince a majority of Scots that they don't need Westminster politicians - in fact I'm certain that a majority already held that view in September 2014 - but not that the subsequent relationship with England, Wales and NI after independence is of little consequence.

ruggedtoast

Its a bit rich, to say the least, for pro Brexit anti immigrant posters on here to accuse the Scots of being anti English.

Perhaps some of you might reflect on how unpleasant you find the idea of being discriminated against due to your nationality and consider that that street goes both ways.

mayonnaise

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Ok, tell me which part of the below doesn't indicate to you that scientific research has established there is evidence of a link between anglophobia and voting SNP/Scottish identity politics.

I'm baffled by the effort you put into showing correlation between Scottish identity and Anglo-phobia.... while on the other hand dismissing any correlation between the brexit vote and hate crime in England.

While EU citizens are being kicked to death, stoned and spat at on England's streets, leaflets with 'No more polish vermin' posted through their letterboxes, Polish ladies being ordered off public transport and German nationals are being advised not to speak their mother tongue in public, you come up with some obscure study on Anglophobia in Scotland?
Give me a break.