The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

mollycat wrote: »

.string.

As a NO/Remain voter who accepts democratic outcomes, can I sincerely thank you for that insight, and also thank you for puting it so accurately.

As someone who lives and works in Scotland, and gives equal value and respect of peoples of all nations, religions and orientation I would like to put on record my absolute disgust at the division, hatred and predujice promoted by nationalists in all forms, both now and throughout history.

Clever propaganda and misinformation targeted at the vulnerable is always shown for what is when the spotlight is shone.

I salute your, and others, continued critique of this dangerous dogma.

Seconded.

Though I'm currently having trouble typing - I'm still laughing at Mayo attempting to persuade readers of:

And I say this as a neutral reader.

About as neutral as Toxic Toastie methinks.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Whoa.

Not an argument. You've not disproved any of the evidence.

I did not dismiss the correlation, I showed it for what it was, as a percentage of the populace that voted to Leave to disprove the narrative you so often use that everyone who voted to Leave is a racist or a xenophobe. You're wrong, clearly. But I absolutely never said that it did not exist and that it was not linked to the EU referendum. If some people choose to do bad things it does not mean that I should change my beliefs on a binary question such as the EU referendum.

What is being discussed (sadly) is the link between anglophobia and the SNP, because I was told I was talking rubbish and that it did not exist. I was challenged to produce evidence of this that wasn't from newspapers - which I have.

You want to change the subject, because you know you cannot win the argument. That's called a pivot.

You discussed a study based on a Scottish Social Attitudes Survey from 13 years ago. And ignored one from last year, from the same place on identity politics.

It is a mistake, committed by many, to equate a substantial SNP vote with an alleged rise in nationalism or nationalist sentiment in Scotland, argues Jan Eichhorn. The evidence indicates the contrary: data from the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey suggests that fewer people emphasise their Scottish national identity distinctively.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/there-was-no-rise-in-scottish-nationalism-understanding-the-snp-victory/

SNP policies especially now in 2016 ( where you should join us all sometime ) are based strictly on Civic, inclusive nationalism. Pro immigration, pro Europe, pro anyone who wants to live in Scotland gets a say and a vote. English included, who incidentally make up the bulk of non-Scottish born 'immigrants' ( for want of a better word ) living here. And indeed from an extensive referendum study after the vote, probably cost the Yes campaign a victory in 2014. <--- NOTHING was made, said or mentioned about this from anyone, least of all the SNP.

A MAJORITY of voters born in Scotland said Yes to independence. But nearly three-quarters of people from elsewhere in the UK voted No.

While 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes, a massive 72.1 per cent of voters from England, Wales or Northern Ireland backed the Union. There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken.
And if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study, more than 300,000 of them will have voted No.

That’s a significant number in a contest that ended with 2,001,926 votes for No and 1,617,989 for Yes.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163 26 MAR 2015

Yes fell about 200,000 votes short of 50%. It wasn't an issue because we all know how civic nationalism as opposed to ethnic nationalism works. Most of us wouldn't want it any other way either. I'm only mentioning now for some context while you and string exchange congratulatory back slaps blithely discussing anglophobia like it's a big thing and purely SNP driven or 'whipped up' by.

All of the above was simply studied not long after the referendum, the results published and that was that as far as it went in Scotland. There were no pitchforks, no 'we was robbed' SNP fanfares or press releases, no increases in hate crimes nor in spray paint sales. All quiet and as it should be despite plenty of raw emotion about the result.

God knows what the riots in the streets and the hysterics from the media would've been like if it had been EU national's who'd swung it for a Remain vote in June. Can you imagine ? The Daily Mail, the Express, the Telegraph, Farage, Duncan-Smith, Johnson.. In fact scrub that, I don't want to imagine it. Probably why they weren't given the vote in the first place.

But don't think that just because this is a Scotland thread that we have no right to compare referendum campaigns or bring xenophobic behaviour/hate crimes to the fore in comparison to Scotland 2014 or a potential next one. Blimey, even High Court Judges aren't safe these days and the lady who brought the case can't even leave her house without protection. I'd take Scotland in the last few years before and after referendums, complete with the odd few nutters on both sides... ANY day over that kind of malarkey going on and actually being normalised by nationwide press and media.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You discussed a study based on a Scottish Social Attitudes Survey from 13 years ago. And ignored one from last year, from the same place on identity politics. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/there-was-no-rise-in-scottish-nationalism-understanding-the-snp-victory/

SNP policies especially now in 2016 ( where you should join us all sometime ) are based strictly on Civic, inclusive nationalism. Pro immigration, pro Europe, pro anyone who wants to live in Scotland gets a say and a vote. English included, who incidentally make up the bulk of non-Scottish born 'immigrants' ( for want of a better word ) living here. And indeed from an extensive referendum study after the vote, probably cost the Yes campaign a victory in 2014. <--- NOTHING was made, said or mentioned about this from anyone, least of all the SNP.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163 26 MAR 2015

Yes fell about 200,000 votes short of 50%. It wasn't an issue because we all know how civic nationalism as opposed to ethnic nationalism works. Most of us wouldn't want it any other way either. I'm only mentioning now for some context while you and string exchange congratulatory back slaps blithely discussing anglophobia like it's a big thing and purely SNP driven or 'whipped up' by.

All of the above was simply studied not long after the referendum, the results published and that was that as far as it went in Scotland. There were no pitchforks, no 'we was robbed' SNP fanfares or press releases, no increases in hate crimes nor in spray paint sales. All quiet and as it should be despite plenty of raw emotion about the result.

God knows what the riots in the streets and the hysterics from the media would've been like if it had been EU national's who'd swung it for a Remain vote in June. Can you imagine ? The Daily Mail, the Express, the Telegraph, Farage, Duncan-Smith, Johnson.. In fact scrub that, I don't want to imagine it. Probably why they weren't given the vote in the first place.

But don't think that just because this is a Scotland thread that we have no right to compare referendum campaigns or bring xenophobic behaviour/hate crimes to the fore in comparison to Scotland 2014 or a potential next one. Blimey, even High Court Judges aren't safe these days and the lady who brought the case can't even leave her house without protection. I'd take Scotland in the last few years before and after referendums, complete with the odd few nutters on both sides... ANY day over that kind of malarkey going on and actually being normalised by nationwide press and media.

No, you've expanded the discussion to legitimise your position.

The fact remains that it wasn't just a survey from 2003 that I posted, I cited many more studies and publications, to which you've not referred.

The study you referred me to makes no mention or acknowledgement of anglophobia, which is not surprising since it wasn't the topic of the article.

If we're talking about anglophobia, lets talk about anglophobia. Not English xenophobia, not nationalism, Scottish or otherwise. Lets stay on message and talk about anglophobia. You claim I'm wrong and that I talk rubbish, you wanted evidence, which I provided.

Just like the economic argument, I'm not inclined to let this one go with simple pivots and deflections after being told I'm talking "tosh". I hope we're going to address it properly and hammer out the point until we reach a consensus as debaters ought to.

Again lets be clear...

I was not referring to:

- civic nationalism
- the referendum result
- the EU referendum campaign
- or anything else you've mentioned in the post you took exception to.

I was talking purely about anglophobia and it's link to the SNP. That I can see it exists (on pro-indy blogs and social media), and I believe that it's linked to the rise of the SNP. You asked me for evidence, which I provided. I understand I'm repeating myself within my own post now too but we're just not getting anywhere. The evidence needs to be disproved with relevant scientific study disproving things like Hussain & Miller (2006) or we need to hear that you agree that anglophobia exists and it's linked with the SNP, as much as you might hate to admit that we should be striving to find the truth and not an interpretation of it.

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

As someone who lives and works in Scotland, and gives equal value and respect of peoples of all nations, religions and orientation I would like to put on record my absolute disgust at the division, hatred and predujice promoted by individuals in all forms, both now and throughout history.

Clever propaganda and misinformation targeted at the vulnerable is always shown for what is when the spotlight is shone.

I .

I almost completely agree with you, just changed nationalist to individuals and we could be saying the same thing...

I'm aware the majority of nationalism can be dangerous but not civic nationalism ... maybe we should give it another name

mollycat

elantan wrote: »

I almost completely agree with you, just changed nationalist to individuals and we could be saying the same thing...

I'm aware the majority of nationalism can be dangerous but not civic nationalism ... maybe we should give it another name

Sorry, just not good enough to quote me in your post but change the text so that my post means something completely different to my intention.

And no way in the world are we saying the same thing; my way of life is something you would happily tear down.

mollycat

mollycat wrote: »

.string.

As a NO/Remain voter who accepts democratic outcomes, can I sincerely thank you for that insight, and also thank you for puting it so accurately.

As someone who lives and works in Scotland, and gives equal value and respect of peoples of all nations, religions and orientation I would like to put on record my absolute disgust at the division, hatred and predujice promoted by nationalists in all forms, both now and throughout history.

Clever propaganda and misinformation targeted at the vulnerable is always shown for what is when the spotlight is shone.

I salute your, and others, continued critique of this dangerous dogma.

For clarity, ^^^^this is what I wrote prior to it being edited by elantan to deliberately and completely distort the meaning.

It's not YOUR thread; you can't go around re-writing other people's posts!!

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

Sorry, just not good enough to quote me in your post but change the text so that my post means something completely different to my intention.

And no way in the world are we saying the same thing; my way of life is something you would happily tear down.

I did say I changed a word though ... it's not like I did it sneakily ... your currently tearing down my life if you want to play that game

ruggedtoast

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

As far as I can see I'm the one arguing that the SNP vote is linked to anglophobia.

I'm not anti-immigrant.

Who exactly were you directing this at?

If you're aiming it at me and you're trying to play the man not the ball here you are going to fail spectacularly, as I'm sure you know my own personal choice on what the UK's relationship with the EU should be, on freedom of movement and on my choice of spouse.

Your "choice of spouse"?

Strewth.

And I thought true love didn't exist...

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

For clarity, ^^^^this is what I wrote prior to it being edited by elantan to deliberately and completely distort the meaning.

It's not YOUR thread; you can't go around re-writing other people's posts!!

Oh other people do it often I'm not any different ... just can't do Boldon on my phone otherwise I wouldve ... I stated I changed a word

We are the same you and I in many ways Molly ... live with it ... embrace it we have a country to build and we should do it together

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I was talking purely about anglophobia and it's link to the SNP. That I can see it exists (on pro-indy blogs and social media), and I believe that it's linked to the rise of the SNP. You asked me for evidence, which I provided. I understand I'm repeating myself within my own post now too but we're just not getting anywhere. The evidence needs to be disproved with relevant scientific study disproving things like Hussain & Miller (2006) or we need to hear that you agree that anglophobia exists and it's linked with the SNP, as much as you might hate to admit that we should be striving to find the truth and not an interpretation of it.

I've just given you and example of the mother of all opportunities for the SNP to whip up massive anglophobia over a study of the break down of the referendum votes should they be so inclined. To a captive and eager audience of disappointed 1.6 million Scottish resident voters.

Not a peep. I've never seen any of them even mention it. In 2003 the SNP was a fringe party on the edge of Scottish politics which in turn was completely dominated by the Labour party. Today, I'd say the 'pool' of SNP voters to study is vastly larger. Therefore the results are likely to be vastly different in 2016. 2003 does not apply anymore. Pro indy blogs on t'internet do not = SNP.

Anyhow back to the real world and something of relevance. Sturgeon is setting out her red lines. Soft Brexit for the UK, or Soft Brexit for Scotland ( rUK can do what they want ) or independence referendum.

4 hours ago

Nicola Sturgeon confirms 'Norway model' option

Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed that the Scottish government is considering a Norway-style model for keeping Scotland in the EU single market.
The first minister told MSPs that the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) and European Economic Area (EEA) models were being looked at.
The Scottish government is examining possible ways of maintaining Scotland's links with the EU.


Addressing a meeting of the Scottish Parliament's conveners' group, Ms Sturgeon reiterated that her priority was to "maintain and protect our place in the single market".
She explained that this meant "membership of the single market, not some vague access to the single market."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37993028